OrthodoxEaster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:44 am

kokorodoko wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:14 am

Curry Pervert wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:55 pmThe support for Ukraine has been propagandised in a scorched earth manner

Out of all the inanities bandied about on this situation, a particularly mystifying one is the notion that NATO countries were super gung-ho about going to war with Russia. On the contrary they started out very cautious, there has been stalling and feet-dragging throughout, and indeed they have been trying to appease Russia by keeping their support low.

People talking as if there is a Gulf War-style coalition on the ground meanwhile reports from Ukraine tell of continuous ammunition shortages and how the actual support they're getting is barely enough. Bizarre.

zorg wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 6:25 pmWho hasn’t been the US’s lap dog in this business , and happy again to send Ukranian’s to die for their self righteous indignation?

What alternate dimension are you inhabiting where this statement makes any sense at all?

It's weird, yeah? This particular talking point was fairly common on this board back in 2013 and 2014. When Maidan was taking place and Russia was occupying Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. (And when international support for Ukraine taking back its own land was pretty muted.)

If I'm recalling it right, a musician dude living over there actually tried to school a few people here on what was really going on. But they were having none of it. It was like, "Never mind what most Ukrainian people in Ukraine actually think about this. It flies in the face of our historical narrative about U.S. foreign policy and Russia. Does not compute. So yeah, let's just parrot some conspiracies from RT and pass them off as the proper leftist position, so we can feel consistent in our messaging."

A few centuries of the Ukrainian fight against Russian imperialism were shrugged off as some kinda CIA-funded coup by a bunch of Nazis and U.S. lapdogs. Was pretty gross, actually. Not to mention far from the truth.

Many on the alt-right exhibited the same behavior.

I think I'm being misunderstood. I'm saying NATO/US is out for their own selfish interests in this. As a Swede, I would have thought this might have a familiar ring to it? 200 years of neutrality out the door, though its should come as no surprise really, as you were always very happy to sell your killing machines . I say this as a serial Volvo owner. I made no comment about Ukrainian motivations, though I did crap on their famously corrupt government, which is a surprise to exactly no one. I am, as always, on the side of the dude who is being conscripted, and I have guilty feelings about that.

All this was in response to Curry Pervert who mentioned that the US public was singular in their misreading of the situation as not a proxy wiar. So fight with him if you want to.

Please find me a country or power in this world that is not out for its own selfish interests. Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast.

Even a country like Finland during the Cold War used its famous neutrality as a way to profit handily off trade w/both NATO nations and the USSR. It seemed less like a moral position than an economic one. It was actually sort of brilliant, and I happen to think it was a smart move. But also, it was pretty self-serving and slightly hypocritical given the Soviet annexation of Karelia and other Finnish lands during the Russo-Finnish War. So "self-serving" and "right" are not always mutually exclusive.

As for Ukraine's famously corrupt government, that hasn't really changed much, historically speaking. Poroshenko and Zelenskyy both kinda suck. But they do beat the pants off Yanukovych, the pro-Russian stooge who predated them (and had already been sent packing in 2005 by the general public for stealing an election, sans anything related to NATO).

And where did the model of corruption on which Ukraine's shitty government is based originally come from? The answer: Russia. Part of the original impulse behind Ukraine's various revolutions and the war has been to (so far, quite unsuccessfully) shed the post-Soviet oligarch model that rots the region.

Basically, if a proxy war is a real, long-running, self-sustaining, hot war for many years before it became anything resembling a proxy war, does it still count as a proxy war? I don't think it's fair to merely chalk the whole thing up to some proxy situation.

In terms of conscription, I sympathize w/those poor fellows, as well. But do you not have a draft when a massive superpower invades your sovereign nation? What's the alternative scenario? Roll over and give up your land or succumb to an even bigger civilian bloodbath b/c you only have a small volunteer army?

Again, had the international community slapped Russia's hand much harder and more resoundingly in Crimea almost 10 years ago, there may have been no need for a broader war.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:57 pm Again, had the international community slapped Russia's hand much harder and more resoundingly in Crimea almost 10 years ago, there may have been no need for a broader war.

Obama should have done more.

genocide joe will never get my vote, that said neither will trump, will probably just sit this one out

I mean if this happened earlier, it would just be Genocide Don, Genocide Barry, or Genocide George. None of them have/had the balls to sanction Netanyahu's authoritarian regime.

you're making assumptions, I'm looking at the facts

kokorodoko wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:14 am

Curry Pervert wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:55 pmThe support for Ukraine has been propagandised in a scorched earth manner

Out of all the inanities bandied about on this situation, a particularly mystifying one is the notion that NATO countries were super gung-ho about going to war with Russia.

I think you've slightly misunderstood - I was referring to the all out media and establishment onslaught since it began.

dumbass wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:48 pm you're making assumptions, I'm looking at the facts

You aren’t citing any though.

ChudFusk wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 11:23 pm

dumbass wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:48 pm you're making assumptions, I'm looking at the facts

You aren’t citing any though.

Biden is supporting a genocide against Palestinians, that is a fact.

Yes, a lot of arguments around international politics tend to ignore the views of the people being argued about. Another group of people we never hear from: Israeli Muslims.