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darktowel wrote:My comment about genres was aimed at Danm and others, who made blunt statements regarding music styles. If people choose to express a liking for a certain type of music (see Steve's extensive post) than this is their good right.


In case you're waiting for the Cliff's Notes version, I'll quote the first goddamned sentence of Steve's post wherein he does indeed make a "blunt statement regarding music styles":

steve wrote:
dude wrote:"I insist that the music I generally listen to be interesting, original (being the historical architype or developmental paradigm for a given style or 'genre'), and has some complexity and depth in either structure or texture.



That the music you find interesting should be "interesting" to you is not a characteristic worth commenting on. Your definition of "original" presupposes that all music is part of a panorama of definable styles and genres. I suggest that this itself is a taxonomic distinction of no interest to those who listen to music for its own sake, on its own terms.

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Alex,

You're absolutely right!
I apologise completely.

Steve's statement is indeed very correct and i agree completely.
(sorry, but the 'quote within quote' posts are pretty confusing though)
I personally couldn't agree more with the big fat letters above!!


I believe you also subscibe to steve's opinion.
So, why do you make a generalisation about free-music?
Aren't you acknowledging Capnreverb's silly statements?

I think we should just forget that there's any difference between 'High' or 'Low' (and no borders between Genres...if they exist at all!).

cheers,

cstof

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Alex wrote:
The music that presently falls under this rubric of "free" or "improvised" is frequently the most stylized, ruly music around and it's certainly never free.


I agree.

It is true that improvised music is not 'original'.
This would require material that would be totally 'new' and without precedent. The term free-music does however refer to a typical movement in music.
Yes, a lot of (so-called) free-music fails to break free from the very thing it reacts against. Yet, some of it has propelled new ideas in music and even
broadend the horizon even more (also by failing to be free!!!)
All music is played within certain set limitations: we choose to play a certain instrument, which is limited (even when you manipulate it in everyway!).
No Music is free (you are correct Alex) and i hate people who claim that their music is.
When I recently went to a 'Free-music' concert, I was completely bored with all the 'academic-free-music' (yes, there is such a thing ironically),
yet I enjoyed a Tuba-solo wich consisted of a melodic bass-line similar to those in marching bands.
The audience was shocked by this ( to my amusement) because they saw their expectations shattered.

A term like Free-music is usually given to a certain music to make categorisation easier. It's unnecessary and does not aid the listening experience. We are now at a stage when a categorisation tells us how to judge music. We are given certain expectations and are misslead to believe that this is the musicians choice.
You don't hear Sun Ra going round and telling people that he plays Jazz!!
(especially since he's dead, of course)


I think there's a strong resemblance between all forms of music and this should be celebrated.
There are Hip Hop records which combined Impovised/free-music, Rock and Folk in one song!! ( Derek Bailey made a record with Sasha-Frere Jones, Bundy K Brown and Casey Rice (Playbacks).)
So why bother even naming the genres?
It's not a Hip Hop nor a Free-music nor Rock nor anything...

Thus music can be free, i guess.

sinceerly (though utopian), i greet you

cstof

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steve wrote:What I suspect is that you like music that surprises you.


Steve, This is the crux of my entire poorly thought out and even more poorly written arguement (if anyone could even call it that).

Music, being the entirely subjective and taste driven medium that it is remains a poor subject to attempt to make the arguement that I made, but one of the greatest criteria that drives my listening is that I be surprised by what I hear and that it hopefully remain surprising (and retain the excitement that such surprise elicits) through many listenings.

I will not dispute that the arguements I presented in my previous rant were poorly thought out. I had a hell of a time just trying to write them. A morning of being subjected to commercial radio and the boredom of my workday certainly fostered the frustration I so clumsily attempted to express.

I perhaps should have stated my frustration is not so much with rock as a broad style or genre so much as its most popular or commercialized forms. Indeed there is equally as much commercialized or just plain bad classical and jazz music that I find unsurprising or inspiring as bad rock, or any other genre for that matter.

My frustration might be better said to be directed at the current state of mass-market, mass-media, where I suppose few of us would care to argue that mediocrity is not the rule. I try to avoid it when and where I can. It induces anger when it becomes impossible to ignore or avoid.

steve wrote:If the function of lyrics and singing were merely to dictate text for transcription/ assimilation, then you would be correct. I don't find that to be the function of vocalization in music, and I feel sorry for anyone who does. Some of my favorite vocalizations, if taken as literature, would be trivial.

Thankfully, they are not. Subject matter and literal meaning are just two of many variable functions that can shade the place, emphasis and effect of vocalization, but they are no more important than the tonal or emotional functions. I cannot criticize the vocalization of (to give one example) Will Oldham, even when he is singing pure gibberish. The "text" value of such singing is nil, and you would be foolish to think his listeners are taking it as literature.

There are other vocalists whose texts are indecipherable, yet who convey the emotional arc of their music. In the classical tradition, opera is sung in the compositional tongue, even to audiences who cannot understand it, and in a stylized form that is meant to serve an almost purely tonal role. Your willful ignorance of the utility of vocalization is telling.


I may have been unclear, but my criticism was aimed squarely at word lyrics where the message is more or less clear and literal. I find vocalization to be an invigorating and exciting part of the musical tonal pallette, as the voice is indeed one of the most flexible and expressive of instruments. One of my favorite vocalizations is the "Sirens" part of Debussy's Trois Nocturnes, or Ligeti's "Lux Aeterna". I do find, however, that I enjoy opera better if I do not follow the libretto or know the language being sung - as the meaning of the words can seem rather trite in comparison to the sheer visceral impact of the vocalizations.

My criticism of popular song structure reflects my desire to be surprised. When I can (with my limited 'armchair-quarterback' understanding of music theory) consistently predict the next chord change or key modulation. When I know exactly what is coming next, without any familiarity with the artist or their work, that is a situaltion where I am quickly bored and need to move on. This is why I seldom listen to Haydan, Handel, or Big Band/Swing.

My dismay at the ubiquity of rock music exists largely as a reaction to those who posit that rock is still a universally fresh, rebellious, form of cultural expression. There are indeed pockets of music, rock and otherwise, that thwart convention and keep the style interesting. On the other hand, I often find myself chuckling that something like "punk" as a style or cultural phenomenon often continues to perpetuate itself as being the same thing it was in 1979 rather than the anachronism that I feel is has largely become.

My criticism of the apparent motivation of rock musicians being money and sex is not so much a stab at you, your friends (or my friends for that matter), or the current state of the art as much as it was a half-assed stab at the primitive popular roots of the music. Here, I believe, is proof against my own arguement that rock has indeed evolved in many ways and grown leaps and bounds in complexity. Again - mass-media in my face as opposed to the reality of many who work in relative obscurity to satisfy the impulse of their artistic needs.


steve wrote:*Your postulate that rock musicians are naiive, unschooled, artless and proud of it


This is what comes across to me, again, in what I percieve to be broad based "mass-media" musicians and musics.

However, I do not hold that belief to all rock musicians and groups, as there are numerous musicians in the genre with exceptional skills and background that I enjoy (many I don't). Many are mentioned on this forum regularly.

steve wrote:*Your embrace of postmodern 20th century academic music as an alternative


I don't know that I was positing this music so much as an alternative as much as that it does exist, introduced many innovations and useful concepts, and goes largely ignored and unnoticed by most everyone except for the academics and moneyed elite. My challange to others would be how to bring this music to wider audiences and appreciation; If only to prevent it from being relagated to the stacks of a music library to collect dust (an apt exagerration).

I've given some thought to what it is I enjoy about jazz as an idiom, and came to the conclusion that, with the styles and performers I enjoy - that listening to musicians play for what seems to be solely their own enjoyment - not mine - does something for me. I'm amused by the noodling or selfish expression of a few musicians playing for what seems to be the sake of their own self expression (or indulgence). Otherwise, the orchestration of much jazz surprises or excites me in ways that electric guitars playing straight rock often don't.

steve wrote:You are bored because you think you have grasped rock music in-toto. Because you think you understand it, you think there is nothing more to it. You are wrong. Your "understanding" of rock music is based on misconceptions, misunderstanding, ignorance...


Indeed... I cannot argue with that. One of the reasons I come to this forum (other than my interest in accurate and natural sounding recording methods/techniques (back to classical, jazz, etc...)) is that I am indeed aware that there is much, much more out there. I have limited time and resources to find the things that might interest me (I don't work in a record store, club, or studio) and do indeed value the suggestions and opinions of those who may share similar interests and backgrounds. I realize that there is much I will never discover or be exposed to - just as there are many great bands and composers who will never be properly recorded or performed. This is what, on a bad day, will drive me to rail so vehemently against what I percieve to be mass-appeal mindless drivel. My apologies if I happen to clumsily lump it under the broadest label of "rock". :oops:

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darktowel wrote:When I recently went to a 'Free-music' concert, I was completely bored with all the 'academic-free-music'


I keep wanting to mention this "free jazz" concert I stumbled across a few weeks ago, a Sunday night thing at a bar I happened to be at (the Hungry Brain, do you know it? it's a cozy place w/cheap drinks, right near Electrical). The band set up: stand-up bass, drums, saxophone - three young guys, probably recent music school graduates. They started "improvising." I was immediately disgusted: the drummer sat up straight and starting whooshing his sticks lightly across the drums & cymbals in that controlled-flowing way that every fucking free-jazz drummer plays the drums. Disgusting! They've been doing this shit for decades! I'm sure the drumming is an imitation of someone long ago who was a creative and ground-breaking drummer, but I've seen this same "spontaneous" crap so many times, it makes me ill. It doesn't make me ill if I'm not in the same room with it, but this night it made me ill. This music, all these sounds are being invented on the spot, right? and yet every sound they made fit perfectly into what I already know "free jazz" to sound like. Why didn't they bring out a tuba, as mentioned elsewhere? Or a barking dog? or maybe a little hand clapping? or why couldn't the drummer play a beat that comes from somewhere else - hip-hop, gamelan, zeppelin, someplace that might take his fellow musicians & the audience to new places? I'm sure all this stuff has been done before, too, but damn, it's worth a try. Couldn't any of them have done something new? Ugh. Awful.

I'm sure this discussion has happened many times, involving people far more versed in the world of free jazz than I. But I swear there's something about "free jazz" that implies "creative and new," and I'm convinced that the free jazz I stumble across (and I don't stumble across all that much, admittedly) is neither creative nor new. The bastards.

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spoot wrote:and yet every sound they made fit perfectly into what I already know "free jazz" to sound like. Why didn't they bring out a tuba, as mentioned elsewhere? Or a barking dog?


I agree. This is a perfect example of restricting the potential of timbre and orchestration based on tradition. Where is the freedom in that? If I were to continue to support any of my complaints about "rock" it would be the limitations its practicioners put upon instrumentation and how that limits the potential for interesting orchestration between a group.

I want to see a contemporary group ("rock" for want of a better word) with a contrabassoon - nothing else can make a sound like that. How about a pair of bass clarinets instead of a bass guitar? Perhaps vibraphone instead of guitar? How about a turntablist in a jazz combo? I certainly admire noise/percussion groups that invent their own instruments from scratch.

Of course this gets back to the element of surprise or unfamiliarity...

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one VERY common failing of 'free music' is the conceit that unfettered sound is possible, given a particular palette of instruments

each instrument's ability to produce 'free music' is crippled by its physical construction and the technical limitations of the person playing it

the real action in 'free music' is in the struggle of the practitioner to break through whatever borders his instrument and ability have put up

this is where the performer's creativity and sense of nobility come into play

great free musicians know that they are fighting a losing battle, but they wage it with gusto anyway

lame free musicians harbor the notion that they can get far enough out just by willing themselves there. they don't realize that they can never make it. they think making noise is a de facto signifier of success, rather than a means to an end at best and a cul de sac at worst.

i have seen charles gayle try to blow one end of a bass clarinet through its bell. i have seen sun ra at 70-something pound his goofy clavinet like it used to be alive and he was trying to resuscitate it. i have seen sonny sharrock wring his guitar's neck like a chicken's. these kinds of experiences are marvelous, for the reasons i mention above, in addition to the fact that they regularly regrouped, making an altogether different, more gently searching kind of music in the process.

but like you, spoot, i have also seen college students overblow an alto sax and play drums with dish towels. these experiences bear the same relation to coltrane trying to atomize one note for five minutes as a peavey decade does to a vox ac30. i suppose both devices amplify a guitar, but it's only possible to experience magnificence with one of them.

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darktowel wrote:Aren't you acknowledging Capnreverb's silly statements?



cstof


since you were unable to find my statements where i said one style of music is better than another, could you please inform me what my "silly statements" were?

pointing out that record store dorks who think they know everything about music and usually know only what they like is not a silly statement.

so, once again, enlighten me.

by the way, you guys have the best ales in the world in your country.
www.soutrane.com

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tmidgett wrote:one VERY common failing of 'free music' is the conceit that unfettered sound is possible, given a particular palette of instruments

each instrument's ability to produce 'free music' is crippled by its physical construction and the technical limitations of the person playing it.


At what point does a means of channeling sound become arbitrary? You could say that's when music stops being free. I would usually claim that to say there's anything non-"referential"-- to quote 8033's book's term-- is the ultimate conceit. But I do consider the 2 year old banging on the piano unfettered sound like waves crashing or wind blowing insofar as the maker of the sound is not responsible for any artfulness we impose on it after the fact. That his sound is fettered by the very finiteness of the piano's palette of sounds is not something I would like to factor into the argument if for no other reason than that I can thereby claim to have done something to stop the proliferation of the drum- circle mentality.

I take it the book raises the stakes higher than I do so I will have to read beyond what Amazon provides and see if I change my thinking.

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