greg wrote:If a teacher here allowed her students to name a stuffed animal "Cuntlicker" she might go to jail a bit, or be titled "child sex offender?"

Greg gets a big fat X for grasping at straws to defend religious lunatics. Cuntlicker and Mohammed are just slightly different.

A couple of thoughts...

I tend to look at religious concepts the same way I look at other powerful abstractions...like money, for instance.

Money has no value in and of itself...unless you need some kindling, or like the way it looks. It is the interplay of our collective perspectives on it that give it it's value, and that collective exchange is what money/etc. really is.

Honestly, I don't really care what concepts an individual adapts in order to develop a moral and ethical standard of behavior for themselves - or a working model of trying to understand how the world works - or any of the other 'questions' that religion ends up being an 'answer' for. I'm pretty sure I have a few illogical and poorly examined view that I use to get through the day, and I'm just as certain that I'm not consciously aware of all of them...

My point: using religious concepts to guide one's behavior as an individual seems reasonably valid, although a lot less valid than the simple 'I don't know/maybe sticking to logic is a good idea' model. Where I have a very real issue with it is in the social/political arena. If I have an unreasonable/invalid belief that I use to model my behavior on, it's typically my problem, and any consequences of adapting that model are mine to deal with. However, once a religious concept becomes an accepted abstraction that networks of people model their behavior on, those abstractions tend to be used as tools against other social-political models of behavior...often for the worse, and often regardless of the understanding of individuals within the network of the concepts they are working under (i.e. religious interpretation). That's where I have tremendous issues with the entire enterprise...

Does this make sense? I've got one hell of a headache...

greg wrote:If a teacher here allowed her students to name a stuffed animal "Cuntlicker" she might go to jail a bit, or be titled "child sex offender?"

Neither. If she was male, perhaps she'd be forced to take a 13 year old bride. That's how they do things in them parts, eh?

rayj wrote:Honestly, I don't really care what concepts an individual adapts in order to develop a moral and ethical standard of behavior for themselves - or a working model of trying to understand how the world works - or any of the other 'questions' that religion ends up being an 'answer' for. I'm pretty sure I have a few illogical and poorly examined view that I use to get through the day, and I'm just as certain that I'm not consciously aware of all of them...

My point: using religious concepts to guide one's behavior as an individual seems reasonably valid, although a lot less valid than the simple 'I don't know/maybe sticking to logic is a good idea' model. Where I have a very real issue with it is in the social/political arena. If I have an unreasonable/invalid belief that I use to model my behavior on, it's typically my problem, and any consequences of adapting that model are mine to deal with. However, once a religious concept becomes an accepted abstraction that networks of people model their behavior on, those abstractions tend to be used as tools against other social-political models of behavior...often for the worse, and often regardless of the understanding of individuals within the network of the concepts they are working under (i.e. religious interpretation).

Does this make sense? I've got one hell of a headache...

I'll bet that teacher cares about the religious concepts valued in Sudan and other Muslim countries. Or perhaps she doesn't and this is why she came to teach there. I fucking care and hate to see anybody who values knowledge treated this way.

I was pissed at first but now I'm getting amused at how lost this whole thing is. No one will dare state that islam is evil and should be rejected and a righteous reign of destruction needs to be showered upon certain key epicenters of the Muslim world. Out of appeasement for the almost equally psychotic far left I'll mention that all religion is evil.

Edit: just because she's a teacher I can't automatically say she values knowledge and ideas but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

Sudan is run by evil muslims who are both racists and religious fanatics. I've met many black sudanese who have had their family and friends slaughtered or sold into slavery to the lighter skinned muslims in that country.

Its a disgusting place

Hans wrote:

greg wrote:If a teacher here allowed her students to name a stuffed animal "Cuntlicker" she might go to jail a bit, or be titled "child sex offender?"

Greg gets a big fat X for grasping at straws to defend religious lunatics. Cuntlicker and Mohammed are just slightly different.

Not at all. They are both funny names for a stuffed bear. They would elicit similar results from two vastly different cultures. There is taboo that is specific to cultures. We still can't show boobs and swear on TV remember. A fact which is funny/ridiculous to other cultures, like the stupid bear story is to us. I think it is more of a cultural problem than religious.
I am terribly bigoted when it comes to cultures sympathetic to "Sharia" like Saudi Arabia, and Oklahoma City. I wouldn't pretend to defend them. It is counter-progressive for humanity. We shouldn't have to imagine a scenario to justify certain bullshit. There are rights that I believe everyone should have while walking the Earth. Those rights extend up to but not beyond the next person's. That being said. I'd don't support imposing my set of beliefs on others. My value system prevents me, plus it never seems to work anyway.
If the Sudanese think putting someone in jail for naming a toy muhammad keeps the peace, great. I may know that it's retarded, but in a retarded country, it's opposite day.

Hans wrote:There are rights that I believe everyone should have while walking the Earth. Those rights extend up to but not beyond the next person's.

This is a great way of saying what I was trying to say...

Damn, my failing brain.

greg wrote:If the Sudanese think putting someone in jail for naming a toy muhammad keeps the peace, great. I may know that it's retarded, but in a retarded country, it's opposite day.

dude, they are calling for her execution in the streets. And its not the "Sudanese" who think that way, its ONLY the muslim sudanese, despite their best efforts, there are still some non muslims in The Sudan alive and not really looking to live by muslim law since they aint muslims.

This idea that "diff culture is just diff" is a pipe dream. What's going on in the sudan is genocide, thats very much the same throughout human history.

The beloved BBC:

"According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".

One demonstrator told reporters that it was unacceptable to take a toy and call it Muhammad.

"We can't accept it from anybody. Even if they can do that in Europe, they cannot do it here in Sudan. We ask our rulers and judges to review what they have said. Fifteen days is not enough."

Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration."

Can't imagine it was that much of a demonstration if only some agencies reported "kill her." Obviously the BBC reporter was elsewhere. And the hundreds of riot police apparently didn't feel the need to break up the demonstration as it may have been generally peaceful.

Oh well, off to bed with my new teddy...

Hexpane wrote:

greg wrote:If the Sudanese think putting someone in jail for naming a toy muhammad keeps the peace, great. I may know that it's retarded, but in a retarded country, it's opposite day.

dude, they are calling for her execution in the streets. And its not the "Sudanese" who think that way, its ONLY the muslim sudanese, despite their best efforts, there are still some non muslims in The Sudan alive and not really looking to live by muslim law since they aint muslims.

This idea that "diff culture is just diff" is a pipe dream. What's going on in the sudan is genocide, thats very much the same throughout human history.

Your right
If muslim Sudanese think putting someone in jail for naming a toy muhammad keeps the peace, great. I may know that it's retarded, but in a retarded culture, it's opposite day