Andy wrote:Why do you see this as a competition? Why are you turning this into sarcasm, name-calling and segregation? Why in the world be insulting to people you're supposedly trying to convince of your point-of-view?

"Just in case you aren't inclined to cope with reality"?

"Liberals are permitted to read this"?

Those are glib little soundbites, but I have to wonder: Do you actually see the world so black & white, so easily defined?

Ah, a newbie to the world of Rick/Bob!

I work for a legal services organization that represents and otherwise assists poor people with legal problems. I have many clients who are immigrants, both legal and illegal. My office is in a neighborhood primarily populated by immigrants, both legal and illegal. My experiences with my clients and the people in my community reveal that the federal government is neither equipped nor motivated to deal with the "problem" of illegal immigration.

As much as I respect the rule of law, I am skeptical about the idealism evoked by the Reubenite majority in this connection. Some of the things being done by Immigration and Customs Enforcement recently (both locally and nationally) alarm my constitutional sense far more than I have ever been concerned by illegal aliens responding to the market forces that are encouraged by federal-governmental inaction. In the intrusive, "government should be all knowing" spirit of the Patriot Act, ICE agents (increasingly working with local law enforcement agencies) are acting like police-state thugs in a way that affects citizens, lawful residents, and illegal aliens alike.

While there is a problem with border security that needs to be addressed in a practical way, if the Reubenite majority has its way, it won't be long before ICE is chipping away at the federal-constitutional freedom of travel/movement in the same way that the TSA has done so. Again, as much as I respect the rule of law, I'm a little more concerned about going down the road with the government agents shaking down people who don't look right or work/live in the right neighborhood than I am about going down the road this country has always traveled (with some embarrassing exceptions -- see the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese immigrant internment camps of WWII, etc.).

Rick Reuben wrote:As far as the other stuff, who called opponents of illegal immigration racists? That was Steve, right?

you can put me down for this too.

Recently, my hispanic neighbors knocked on my door to tell me that the hot water pipe going to my shower was leaking through their ceiling.

So I came down to look at it and i tried to fix it. While working on it (I looked up some spanish so I could communicate a bit with them) I said "Hey did you call Andy (our landlord)?" They went on for several minutes about how regardless of the circumstances, despite an electrical fire and their heater failing, the landlord would kind of wave them off and tell me them he'll ge to it but never did. They had to call 911 and have the fire department come out and fix it.

For whatever reason (actually, many succinct reasons) whenever I've called Andy, he's come and helped me - regardless of the time or complication of the issue.
I'd wage it's because of the following reasons: a) I can read my lease and know what is required of him b)I can enforce legal action (because I'm a citizen) 3) I'm white.

This bothers me greatly, that someone would take advantage of the ignorance of others. And that I receive immediate help and the best service because I'm not on his hate list.

I stopped asking him to fix things and started doing it myself.


Jeremy

Jeremy wrote:
I stopped asking him to fix things and started doing it myself.

Nice, big up yoself. Respeck.

Anyone seen the Meredith Monk film, Ellis Island? It's marvelous.

Rick Reuben wrote:

Andy wrote:I suggest that your vitriol and aggression at the damn Mexicans

Do not put words in my mouth, ass- I've never said word one against Mexicans. I said that I oppose illegal immigration, cheats, and law breakers who are illegal immigrants, like drunk or uninsured drivers. That does not mean I have any complaints about Mexicans as a people- it means that I object to them when they cheat the system, just like I would object to fucking Swedes if they were the lead group of system cheaters, just like I would expect to face criticism were I to be caught cheating the system. If you can't handle your side of this debate without distorting my positions, then fuck off.

Rick, (1) how does illegal immigration affect your bottom line? and (2) why does it bother you so much?

Rick Reuben wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Rick Reuben wrote:As far as the other stuff, who called opponents of illegal immigration racists? That was Steve, right?

you can put me down for this too.

You are making your landlord respresent all opponents of illegal immigration?? That's real scientific of you.

That was a story. It's not my only experience with anti-illegal immigration racists. I know a whole slew of 'um.
At my last apartment, my landlord came in the first day we were there. Within 10 minutes he was saying "Glad to see some white people 'round here. Gettin' sick of these niggers and illegal spics stealing our work. nah mean?"

This is another of what those of us over here call 'an example'. Why is it that the extreme right wingers always take one example and respond as if it's the only example of a stance and therefore moot?

Rick Reuben wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Rick Reuben wrote:As far as the other stuff, who called opponents of illegal immigration racists? That was Steve, right?

you can put me down for this too.

You are making your landlord respresent all opponents of illegal immigration?? That's real scientific of you.

Also, I don't think (nor did steve say) that all opponents of illegal immigration are racist.

An overwhelming majority of people who are against illegal immigration have an underlying agenda that smacks of racist. You know the Bible belt?

Jeremy

Try reading the thread. I've only complained about the government's failure to enforce the laws against employers about six times....

Agreed. And when local governments try to enforce laws against employers, what happens? The ACLU sues them.

Round and round we go!

Rick Reuben wrote:

joelb wrote:If agricultural labor became transparent, legal and subject to wage controls overnight, the price of goods would skyrocket.

So you are agreeing that illegal immigrants depress wages, because if you take them out of the equation, wages rise. That's good to know. I think a few folks here argue that illegal immigrants *don't* depress wages.

Agreed that availability of off-the-books labor sidesteps government or union control of wages. Not agreed that wages would rise if you took them out of the equation, as employers will always find a way to to pay as little as possible. Regardless, I don't think "taking them out of the equation" is possible or desirable in a country I want to live in. I do know that day laborers on construction jobs in the city I live in make more than the minimum wage but way under union rates.

Rick Reuben wrote:

joelb wrote:It's in many folks' interest to support the availability of low-cost, off the books labor and turn a blind eye to legality.

Sorry, but are you arguing that we should all celebrate when huge corporations acquire the most exploitable work force they can find? Following your logic, why don't we turn a blind eye to other labor laws?
Surely, the price of goods would fall even more if we made people work 70 hours a week without overtime pay, or took away the minimum wage. Since you are defining what is in people's interest as 'low prices', why not push for other changes to the economy that will lower prices?

I'm not arguing in favor of anything, I'm pointing out that what I said is true. Like it or not, many (some might say the vast majority) believe that paying less for the goods they desire is in their interest. Any controls on illegal immigrant labor will necessarily increase either 1) prices or 2) government subsidies (taxes). Either way, it's an uphill battle, and one I think could be fought far more wisely than by creating an idealistic legal expectation that flows of illegal immigrants will cease, wages will rise, and everyone will smile as they pay $15/lb for ground beef.