Rick Reuben wrote: Illegal immigration has a detrimental effect on society as a whole,
What is that effect?
Illegal Immigration?
91What is that effect?
Let's stick together and futurize our attitudes!
What is that effect?
Illegal Immigration?
92Clocker Bob, what do you say to the argument that even Mexicans deserve a living wage, something they cannot get in Mexico? And, given that, as Drew Patrick said, Washington isn't going to change anything in the near future, can we really justify limiting the number of immigrants to a small quota when our own corporations' overseas policies have created the conditions requisite to this massive influx? You've been "treed," as the firemen say: You won't justify coming here illegally, so your only other option is to sit in your underground bunker and rail against corporate malfeasance and their "pig troughs". As though that is going to do anything to change the situation. Presumably, things might change if Ron Paul gets elected, but I shudder at the thought.
What would you do if you couldn't feed your family?
And you dodged my pointing out that even legal immigrants pay very little in income tax due to their low bracket status, so we're not actually missing out on that much. And weren't you the one who wanted to get rid of the income tax anyway?
Your jeremiads against "fake liberals" are meaningless bluster and make you sound like more and more of an ass with each post.
What would you do if you couldn't feed your family?
And you dodged my pointing out that even legal immigrants pay very little in income tax due to their low bracket status, so we're not actually missing out on that much. And weren't you the one who wanted to get rid of the income tax anyway?
Your jeremiads against "fake liberals" are meaningless bluster and make you sound like more and more of an ass with each post.
Last edited by NerblyBear_Archive on Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gay People Rock
Illegal Immigration?
93Rick Reuben wrote:warmowski wrote:Fence, wall, whatever - all complete distractions, all pointless.
Really? Why not stop checking for shipments of drugs at the borders? Just let them through, and then try and bust some big dealer here in the US. Does that parallel your 'no border enforcement' argument re: illegal immigration?
"I oppose a pointless quasi-racist boondoggle project" does not equate to "I oppose border enforcement."
A does not equal B.
In 2007, these stupid wall ideas are being kicked around as if the real problem is located at at the border. I am saying the problem does not lay at the border. It lies in the books of US business. It lies in the lack of enforcement of the Simpson-Mazolli laws.
What's more, the problem hides in the smoke left by the wildfire-like spread of the libertarian fantasy that unfettered private interests serve rather than intrude on public interests.
It's in the public interest to not have a huge shadow population. Yet nobody thinks to enforce the laws we have had on the books for the last 21 years before we give KBR another few billion to deliver a few million worth of ineffective wall.
Try governing. Start interrupting the lifestyles of captains of industry who've made huge fortunes off of illegal immigration. Enforce existing law right in their face: highlight the cost of public interest and hand that cost to the book-cookers for once. Scare the fertilizer out of them by speaking to them at the annual trade shows of industries that have benefited the most from the failure to enforce. Interrupt golf foursomes. Frog-walk executives, audit subcontracts, wire up thousands of workers with audio and video capture, pile up leverage. Fines in the six and seven figures for violations. Jail time - for white guys in ties! Get their attention.
As sure as Wal-Mart figured out it would be a good idea to train their workers fill out state welfare forms, future enforcement of existing laws to create a new playing field re: illegal workers will prompt them to figure out how to stay in business without exploiting a shadow population.
-r
Illegal Immigration?
94The rule of law is indeed very important. That is why I was so glad to hear about the FBI raiding the Liberty Dollar offices and seizing their illegal currency. They had flouted the law for far too long and needed to be stopped. We can't have this in our country. I demand the enforcement of all laws.
Illegal Immigration?
95Here's an interesting interview from NPR with its business correspondent Adam Davidson:
I want to do a recap here. What have we learned this afternoon? We've learned that the illegal immigration issue is largely a right-wing smokescreen. Consider the aspects of the issue pointed out by Adam here:
* Close to no net impact on umeployment.
* Only one-tenth of the American workforce is harmed by illegal immigration--to the tune of $25 a week or so--but keep in mind that (1) it doesn't even matter whether those competitors are illegal or not--as long as they are immigrants they will be competing. And, (2), prices decrease for both that one-tenth and for the rest of our consumers, possibly making up for that $25 a week revenue loss.
* Adam told us that most citizens stay away from the big hubs of illegals anyway because they don't want to compete for jobs. Another large chunk of the problem dealt with.
* Even if all illegals were to be deported today and a big Chinese wall constructed on the border, American businesses would choose to automate, not to hire more cheap labor. Hence, no benefit to American workers or their wages.
* Illegals create demand that leads to new jobs by buying cars and homes, etc.
It's amazing what the tiniest amount of research can do to clear up a problem.
NPR wrote:Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy
by Adam Davidson
By the Numbers
• By increasing the labor supply between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4 percent.
• Among those born in the United States who did not graduate from high school -- roughly the poorest one-tenth of the work force -- the estimated impact was even larger, reducing wages by 7.4 percent.
• The negative effect on U.S.-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites, because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.
• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.
Source: Jorge Borgas, Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
NPR.org, March 30, 2006 · Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality.
Advocates on both sides of the immigration debate predict dramatic change if illegal immigration is drastically curtailed. Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying undocumented workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do. NPR business correspondent Adam Davidson explores the issue.
Q: What is the impact of illegal immigration on wages in the United States?
Well, for an individual, it depends on where you are, what kind of work you do and whether you have skills that illegal immigrants don't. But overall, illegal immigrants don't have a big impact on U.S. wage rates. The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.
There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants.
Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates. Undocumented workers certainly do take jobs that would otherwise go to legal workers. But undocumented workers also create demand that leads to new jobs. They buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants. On average, there is close to no net impact on the unemployment rate.
Q: But what about wages in cities like Los Angeles and Chicago, where there are many illegal immigrants? And what about wages in industries that use many undocumented workers?
More than a third of illegal immigrants live in just three cities: New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. But even in these places, economists believe there is minimal impact on wages. That's because many Americans from other parts of the country choose not to move to areas with large numbers of immigrants, because they want to avoid competing for jobs.
Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.
Illegal immigrants do often take some of the country's least attractive jobs, such as in meat packing and agriculture. If there were no undocumented workers available for those jobs, employers would likely invest in new technology, replacing workers with automation.
Q: How do illegal immigrants affect the overall U.S. economy?
Illegal immigration has both negative and positive impacts on different parts of the economy. As noted above, wages for low-skilled workers go down. But that means the rest of America benefits by paying lower prices for things like restaurant meals, agricultural produce and construction. Another negative impact is on government expenditures. Since undocumented workers generally don't pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services, they are seen as a drain on government spending.
There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration.
The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy.
I want to do a recap here. What have we learned this afternoon? We've learned that the illegal immigration issue is largely a right-wing smokescreen. Consider the aspects of the issue pointed out by Adam here:
* Close to no net impact on umeployment.
* Only one-tenth of the American workforce is harmed by illegal immigration--to the tune of $25 a week or so--but keep in mind that (1) it doesn't even matter whether those competitors are illegal or not--as long as they are immigrants they will be competing. And, (2), prices decrease for both that one-tenth and for the rest of our consumers, possibly making up for that $25 a week revenue loss.
* Adam told us that most citizens stay away from the big hubs of illegals anyway because they don't want to compete for jobs. Another large chunk of the problem dealt with.
* Even if all illegals were to be deported today and a big Chinese wall constructed on the border, American businesses would choose to automate, not to hire more cheap labor. Hence, no benefit to American workers or their wages.
* Illegals create demand that leads to new jobs by buying cars and homes, etc.
It's amazing what the tiniest amount of research can do to clear up a problem.
Gay People Rock
Illegal Immigration?
96Rick, don't dodge the points about automation, no net impact on unemployment, and the lowered prices of goods.
I didn't put your parts in bold because these possibly trump them.
I didn't put your parts in bold because these possibly trump them.
Gay People Rock
Illegal Immigration?
97Rick Reuben wrote:El Protoolio wrote:The rule of law is indeed very important. That is why I was so glad to hear about the FBI raiding the Liberty Dollar offices and seizing their illegal currency. They had flouted the law for far too long and needed to be stopped. We can't have this in our country. I demand the enforcement of all laws.
So I can put you down as being in favor of FBI raids over victimless crimes? Cool. Nobody who bought or used Liberty Dollars did so against their will. Clearly, that's the kind of expression of resistance to the criminal system of devaluing fiat that must be nipped in the bud before it spreads.
So I can put you down as acknowledging that Liberty Dollars are as illegal as illegal immigrants and therefore subject to the same level of aggressive enforcement that you advocate for illegal workers? Cool.
it's not the length, it's the gersch
Illegal Immigration?
98Rick Reuben wrote:Why don't you go drive around the South Side of Chicago telling high school graduate black guys that they can't get restaurant and bar work in the city, because we need to import illegal immigrants to keep restaurant owners from charging yuppies too much for their Mojitos?
It's not just the price of "Mojitos" (whatever those are) that go down, but the costs of necessities like food and such, which, I think, may possibly make up for the wage loss taken by that bottom 10%.
Gay People Rock
Illegal Immigration?
99Your reliance on labels like 'liberal' and 'fake liberal' belies your inability to grasp simple human concepts.
Your ideology puts a few dollars ahead of the health and safety of human beings, and therefore sucks. Illegal immigrants are not depriving any Americans of any services they require.
Your ideology puts a few dollars ahead of the health and safety of human beings, and therefore sucks. Illegal immigrants are not depriving any Americans of any services they require.
Illegal Immigration?
100Rick Reuben wrote:It's like I'm in a rocket ship.
Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
Visualize World Muff