Wood Goblin wrote:A few years ago, The New Yorker published a story about suicides off the Golden Gate bridge. Two details have stuck with me since I read it:

(1) There hasn't been a single known instance in which somebody committed suicide by jumping off the Bay Bridge. Furthermore, ~90% of jumpers faced the city as they jumped, and the remaining 10% jumped from the other side of the bridge. This suggests that the subset of people who kill themselves by jumping off of bridges in San Francisco idealize/romanticize suicide, even if they're incapable of realizing it. It's not a beautiful or noble or poetic way to end your life; it's sentimental and childish.

Is this your opinion, or is it from the article you read?

Wood Goblin wrote:
(2) A handful of persons have survived the jump. In every case, the jumper realized the second that he or she left the bridge, that all of his or her problems could be managed. That information, as obvious as it was, has terrified me for a few years. I agree that nearly every person on the planet has at least entertained the idea of suicide, I would bet that nearly 100% of non-terminally ill people who successfully kill themselves reconsider the act once they've reached the point that they can't undo it.

I'll take this bet.


Suicide Survivors

The experience of jumping for all six of the survivors was described as tranquil and not frightening or terrifying as one might expect....

"It was a good feeling- no screaming. It was the most pleasant feeling I've ever had..."

Another survivor said that at first he had a peaceful feeling and then he felt like he went into a "dream"...

One subject stated that he had a "sense of relief" or "peace" on the way down.


I felt like a bird flying- total relief. In my mind I was getting away from one realm and go to another. I did not struggle. I gave up. I was looking forward to what was to come


Another reported that his descent was like "eternity- beautiful. I enjoyed the sensation."


A Follow-up Study of Persons Who Survived Jumping from the Golden Gate and San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridges (1975)

Also:

Wood Goblin wrote:There hasn't been a single known instance in which somebody committed suicide by jumping off the Bay Bridge.

Please refer to the title of the article.

I stand corrected. Either my memory of the article isn't that great, or they were looking at a different sample.

Wood Goblin wrote: (2) A handful of persons have survived the jump. In every case, the jumper realized the second that he or she left the bridge, that all of his or her problems could be managed. That information, as obvious as it was, has terrified me for a few years. I agree that nearly every person on the planet has at least entertained the idea of suicide, I would bet that nearly 100% of non-terminally ill people who successfully kill themselves reconsider the act once they've reached the point that they can't undo it.

They might reconsider the act, but it's possible that some of them might simply be rationalizing because of the situation that they're in. Their problems might not seem irreparable after they've lost contact with the bridge, but whether they could have turned their life around is something else. People suffering from mania constantly think that they're going to start leading a new life, but that's usually not the case.

sparky wrote:

Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:I certainly don't mean to trivialize this man's death--or his life--but being "scared and horrified by the simple act of thinking" and committing suicide by fisting one's own mouth would seem to qualify him as a "loon."

I would only agree if you included "incredibly frightened and desperate" in your description, but I don't think that's what you mean.

If you associate thinking with existing (it is after all what all our perceptions are processed through), then if you are afflicted by a deep horror of existence, the act of thinking - and hence existing - would be terrifying. Personally, I find it quite reasonable to imagine a sane state of fear where the act of thinking fed back into terror. I'm sure that I've experienced similar on a merciful few occasions. This is not a rational reaction, certainly, but I would not call this state insanity.

With regards to the horrible method of suicide, given the situation that he was in, I would imagine that any way he might have tried would have been similarly gruesome. But if he was that desperate, then such a method would still be preferable to this continual fear as described.

Maybe I'm wrong. Hell, if he was feeling in this state continuously, then it could actually drive him mad. In which case, his ultimate reaction could be read as an instance of sanity.

I don't know. It is just very sad and very shocking (to me) that someone could be so terrified by actual existence that he would take such extreme methods to kill himself. Calling him a "loon" feels (again, to me) like belittling him, which feels wrong. Maybe he was insane by clinical definition; but I don't think that the story as told suits this "loon" description.

(Apologies to have gone on a little on this, but like I wrote above, this story bothers me.)

i apologize for giving you trouble. this guy i know used to share more stories like that with me, in the end i just had to ask him to keep them for himself, as i couldn't handle them.

i feel very sorry for the people who are mentally ill but still retain a degree of sanity high enough to (partially or fully) let them comprehend the entity of their troubles. paranoia, schizophrenia, mania, depression and all those mindtraps.

somebody speak fake italian now, eh!

suicide: not crap.

those who think it is should try it before they mouth off about it.





in all seriousness, you're only looking at it from one angle. the depressed take my own life angle. there's more than that.

hunter s. thompson killed himself, i was ok with it.
i'm not bothered by hemingway's either.
bob quine, dave blood, it was their call. they made it.

it's an end result of depression sometimes. an illness. one could think of depression as something akin to cancer, a terminal disease. or as alcoholism, something someone can completely fail to control.

it's something people do, sometimes the choice is made by a sick mind. sometimes, people never saw it coming. were they sick? you'd say apparently because they're dead at their own hand, but you know what, you didn't notice. yeah, they're dead, but i dare say you're the asshole in the situation.

what about the people left behind? what about them? their guilt? yeah, maybe they earned that weight. it's a little presumptuous though. they're dead, maybe you could've saved 'em. maybe you're help only prolongs the misery, that's a dick move.

it's a persons right to go when they want. they can say goodbye if they want. you don't get to make the call. though, i think if a person is going to go ahead and off themself, it's nice to tidy up the affairs and not leave a huge mess for someone else to find.

kurt cobain's death was obviously a fuck you to courtney.

also, you antisuiciders, where do you stand on abortion? not to say the two are the same, i just wanna know where you stand and how you draw that line.

really, i don't. i just think all this mouthing off is a bunch of loud mouthed hypocrisy. how close have you been to it, has it touched you or have you touched it? where do you get the self righteousness to tell someone they have to live? it's not your call. yeah, you might be their friend, their brother, their son, their father, but they wanted to go. besides, suicide is the last step. you should've noticed and tried to help way before it ever got there.

you know what though, sometimes, there is no help to give. that's life. specifically, an end part.

suicide is a sad and tragic event the majority of the time, but if someone hurts and wants to go, that's their right and i support it.

suicide: a painful not crap.

same goes for abortion.

both are decisions no one wants to make. they have to get made though.




just wanted to air my opinion and mouth off with the rest of the assholes. i don't care what you think about what i think. discuss it with someone else.

This sort of thread is always, ultimately, the most boring and irritating to have to read. After six pages we have three or maybe four posts that indicate a humane, human intelligence at work. The rest - all these bullshit posturings and self-righteous pronouncements, are nothing but advertisements of your collective fear. What's even worse is the cultured, "sensitive" mask of understanding (on Quine, "I have nothing but contempt for his actions," blah blah. HE'S ALREADY DEAD, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE EFFECT YOUR WORDS MIGHT HAVE ON HIS SELF-ESTEEM..

And the ever present worry about "selfish" behavior. Christ. Brushing your teeth is selfish. Giving to the poor is selfish. Calling someone else a coward is about as selfish as behavior gets. Why get so worked up about it? Are you afraid that if you let your guard down you might lose control and kill yourself?
How many of you know anything about the people Robert Quine "left behind"? Do you know their names? Do you know how they feel after eating breakfast? Eating is one of the simplest, most straightforward things we do, but you don't know who he "left behind" or how they feel about eating breakfast. How can you possibly know how they feel about someone else's death? A death they had all foreseen? One that surprised them?
Given the limitations of your knowledge, it is nothing but stupidity and hubris that makes you even attempt to tell others what Quine HIMSELF thought or felt.

You ever go to a funeral and listen to a motherfucking priest tell you to stop grieving, because God has experienced loss far worse than yours, yours is nothing? Until you have learned to talk and think with intelligence about suicide you will be under the control of priests every second of your life.

This is in the running to become one of the most offensive threads on the Premier Rock Forum. I would say "you guys should read what you have written," but I have a feeling it would only encourage more of the same; a circle jerk of self-righteousness. It's one of those times I feel shame for my species, and I really don't know what to do about it. This is not hyperbole. The whole thing just makes me very, very sad.

How about this; I had one of those rare, amazing moments when I read a post by Gramsci and thought, "thank god." But a few minutes later the thrill had worn off. That kind of existential argument, which can sound fine when you're smoking imported cigarettes, doesn't fare too well when scratch-tested by reality, and we're all growing too old to expect solace from watching Camus and Ayn Rand copulate.

Thank you Nina.

Magnificent posts, that damned fly and Nina.

that damned fly wrote:suicide: not crap.

those who think it is should try it before they mouth off about it.





in all seriousness, you're only looking at it from one angle. the depressed take my own life angle. there's more than that.

hunter s. thompson killed himself, i was ok with it.
i'm not bothered by hemingway's either.
bob quine, dave blood, it was their call. they made it.

it's an end result of depression sometimes. an illness. one could think of depression as something akin to cancer, a terminal disease. or as alcoholism, something someone can completely fail to control.

it's something people do, sometimes the choice is made by a sick mind. sometimes, people never saw it coming. were they sick? you'd say apparently because they're dead at their own hand, but you know what, you didn't notice. yeah, they're dead, but i dare say you're the asshole in the situation.

what about the people left behind? what about them? their guilt? yeah, maybe they earned that weight. it's a little presumptuous though. they're dead, maybe you could've saved 'em. maybe you're help only prolongs the misery, that's a dick move.

it's a persons right to go when they want. they can say goodbye if they want. you don't get to make the call. though, i think if a person is going to go ahead and off themself, it's nice to tidy up the affairs and not leave a huge mess for someone else to find.

kurt cobain's death was obviously a fuck you to courtney.

also, you antisuiciders, where do you stand on abortion? not to say the two are the same, i just wanna know where you stand and how you draw that line.

really, i don't. i just think all this mouthing off is a bunch of loud mouthed hypocrisy. how close have you been to it, has it touched you or have you touched it? where do you get the self righteousness to tell someone they have to live? it's not your call. yeah, you might be their friend, their brother, their son, their father, but they wanted to go. besides, suicide is the last step. you should've noticed and tried to help way before it ever got there.

you know what though, sometimes, there is no help to give. that's life. specifically, an end part.

suicide is a sad and tragic event the majority of the time, but if someone hurts and wants to go, that's their right and i support it.

suicide: a painful not crap.

same goes for abortion.

both are decisions no one wants to make. they have to get made though.




just wanted to air my opinion and mouth off with the rest of the assholes. i don't care what you think about what i think. discuss it with someone else.

well, who knows, sometimes suicide can probably be a very quick decision. given certain circumstances someone can "snap" and do it.
the victim doesn't see it coming, and also no one around him.

but calling the people around him "assholes" because they didn't "understand"... dubious reasoning, given how hard understanding people can be.

also, suicide studies show that suicide, in most cases, is an act that the committer has planned for days,months, even years ahead.

also, trying to help someone who is suicidal is not a bad thing.
it's perfectly human, understandable, reasonable. death is not retrievable, you know? we don't want our loved ones to die, maybe we prefer having them suffer.

historically, humans don't associate psychic pain with body pain. we think mind is a thing and the body is another while ,arguably, they're both parts of a body. maybe it's a msitake, but we think that "triciking", "conning" people into happiness might save them from suicide. perfectly understandable, not always effective, but i wouldn't put it in the "bad things to do" field.

ultimately, the act of dying depends on the suicidal person, so trying one's best to have the victim not choose death is the least we can do.
or maybe we should tell them: "well, go do it, if that's what you want".
but this sounds a bit too politically correct, and as far from human as can be.

i simpathise with people who love the victim: the're not trying to fix a broken machine, rather a human mind. since there's no real universal consensus as to what a human mind constitutes, whatever mistake they make by "prolonging the suffering" is at least forgivable. give those people a break, eh?

and kurt cobain's suicide may have been a "fuck you to himself", or the world or drugs or whatever. or maybe an act of terminal depression. like, did you know the guy? i'm curious.

I agree with Nina.

Let's shut the fuck up about suicide.

Innalec-chew-all tom-wankery of the worst sort.