zorg wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:18 pm

Shananiganz wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:11 pm we've heard a lot of threats of invasion during the Putin years.

Quote one reliable source.

Managed to find some recent articles in English, just for you. They are threats due Finland joining NATO. Now you'll probably defend Russia and say we caused it by joining NATO?
https://yle.fi/a/74-20045134
https://yle.fi/a/74-20065457
https://yle.fi/a/3-12405420
https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000010212372.html This one is in Finnish, but you can see the cockcocket Medvedev's tweet embedded there.

This is from 2012, still about NATO. The thing is, majority of Finnish people were against joining NATO at this time.
https://jamestown.org/program/general-m ... n-finland/

The mood changed drastically when the Ukrainian invasion kicked off again.

Is this enough? Would you have some tea with it?

zorg wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:13 am

JohnAlbert wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 5:38 am One of these folks is an old, dear friend of mine. He has leftist credentials, having written a lot of articles for CounterPunch. We got into it a number of times on Facebook, in the run-up to last year's election, because he was repeatedly and stridently telling people not to vote for Harris.

I wonder how he's feeling right now, seeing that Trump is literally advocating to clear all the Palestinians out of Gaza and bulldoze it to make way for luxury condos and hotels.

If you're suggesting that the administration that proudly razed Gaza, killed 50k (70% women and children) while at the same time denying basic humanitarian aid for the survivors.....all in the name of self-defense, was planning to rebuild Gaza for the Gazans, you can call me whatever you want.

Where did I ever even suggest such a thing? Also, what the fuck are you talking about?

"Neo-tankies" are the self-described leftists who parrot Kremlin propaganda. Full stop. If that's you, then you wear that moniker.

And yes, it is true that the Biden administration was apparently beholden to Israel, to the point of not giving a shit about the Palestinians.

But so is Trump.

And Trump is bringing a lot more fascism than Harris ever would have done.

Are you going to deny that?

The above is exactly correct, unfortunately.

The issue this time was if you did an excel spreadsheet of policies, on Gaza the column has the same shit in it so they neutralise each other. So you look at the other stuff. This time around it wasn’t W vs That Guy with the Huge Chin, it was establishment liberal vs fascist. Keeping that at bay for another cycle was worth putting a peg on your nose.

JohnAlbert wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:27 am And Trump is bringing a lot more fascism than Harris ever would have done.

Are you going to deny that?

I guess my point was that I'm having a hard time figuring out how he could be more cruel or fascistic to the Palestinians specifically. Sure, Harris would have wrapped it up in a pretty bow, but that's about it. In some ways Trump might be better for the Palestinians in that the rest of the world is a little bit less comfortable with his blowhard rhetoric, even if they've already happily condoned much worse while the leader of the free world was still maintaining the facade of victimhood. But that's probably just wishful thinking, and they'll fall in line soon enough. At least the Irish aren't going to celebrate St. Patricks Day at the White House. So that's a start.

zorg wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:09 am

JohnAlbert wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:27 am And Trump is bringing a lot more fascism than Harris ever would have done.

Are you going to deny that?

I guess my point was that I'm having a hard time figuring out how he could be more cruel or fascistic to the Palestinians specifically.

You have a hard time figuring out that Donald Trump is a far more cruel-minded person than Kamala Harris?

Are you kidding?

zorg wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:09 amSure, Harris would have wrapped it up in a pretty bow

"wrapped it up in a pretty bow"?!?

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

zorg wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:09 amIn some ways Trump might be better for the Palestinians

OK dude, I can see that you're not being serious about this conversation. Either that, or you're extremely misinformed, or just plain thick.

Making it about Harris or Trump personally and their positions is missing the point, though the differences are of course not at all insignificant there when it comes to Israel (as are the differences between the parties in general: the Democrats are slowly, albeit grindindly so, shifting away from a default pro-Israel stance).
It's about their respective coalitions and who is susceptible to how much pressure (to change the situation for the better).
Harris would have been susceptible to pressure.
Trump is not.

Shananiganz wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:21 am

zorg wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:18 pm

Shananiganz wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:11 pm we've heard a lot of threats of invasion during the Putin years.

Quote one reliable source.

Managed to find some recent articles in English, just for you. They are threats due Finland joining NATO. Now you'll probably defend Russia and say we caused it by joining NATO?
https://yle.fi/a/74-20045134
https://yle.fi/a/74-20065457
https://yle.fi/a/3-12405420
https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000010212372.html This one is in Finnish, but you can see the cockcocket Medvedev's tweet embedded there.

This is from 2012, still about NATO. The thing is, majority of Finnish people were against joining NATO at this time.
https://jamestown.org/program/general-m ... n-finland/

The mood changed drastically when the Ukrainian invasion kicked off again.

Is this enough? Would you have some tea with it?

Hey, sorry if I was being obnoxious, I'm mostly American, so it comes easily. My point was not to disprove you, or to defend Russia. I hope I made it clear in previous posts that I lump them in with the rest of the untenable and corrupt maximalist megastates that rule the world. My thought is I find it disappointing that a place like Sweden or Finland, which are famously the envy of the world with freedoms, copious parental leave, and good math scores want to spend their time grandstanding with these other idiots instead of seeking peace and reconciliation. And so I ask why.

I appreciate the references, and while you are completely correct that the mood has soured, nothing here points toward any kind of aggression from Russia. If I missed it please let me know. Otherwise, do you really think that Finland hosting NATO's largest artillery exercise ever held in Europe, while at the same time materially waging a proxy war against Russia all while sanctioning them, is going to endear you to them? I would say considering the circumstances the quotes here are really very diplomatic. From what you sent - Putin on Finland (after the invasion): "Did we have any disputes with them? All disputes, including territorial ones in the mid-20th century, have long since been solved, there were no problems there" You could say that is just a devious lie, but why then have they have loudly shouted their dominion over Ukraine for ages? It's not fair to Ukraine for EU to act like victims.

Finally, no fault of yours, but we have to be exceedingly careful with our sources. It is also happening on a broad scale elsewhere, but Americans have created various NGOs and "Think Tanks" that operate as propaganda machines aligned, but not formally affiliated with the government. The Jamestown Foundation you quoted is a hawkish conservative military organization founded by the CIA to get juicy stories out of Russian defectors.

It's an ugly world out there, lets be nice to each-other, and please not support the military industrial complex, anywhere, ever.

jimmy spako wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:10 am Harris would have been susceptible to pressure.
Trump is not.

You might have a point there. I guess my concern is that I don't see the pro-Israel lobby faltering.

jimmy spako wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:10 am It's about their respective coalitions and who is susceptible to how much pressure (to change the situation for the better).
Harris would have been susceptible to pressure.
Trump is not.

Trump is influenced by 1) Money, 2) Praise, and 3) a combination of the two, a few minutes before he takes a stage.

Bibi Netanyahu was told about the plan for Gaza only a few minutes before it was announced. Kushner was the last person in Trump's ear about Gaza and now we have 'The Riviera of The Middle East'.

Trump is notorious for saying, "All I need if five minutes, and I'll solve any problem." That roughly translates into, "The last filthy rich person who talks to me, gets their way."

JohnAlbert wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:33 am

zorg wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:09 amSure, Harris would have wrapped it up in a pretty bow

"wrapped it up in a pretty bow"?!?

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

More meaningless stuff like this...talking out of both sides of her mouth...y'know...the kind of stuff that makes genocide easier to sell to constituents.

"Let me be clear, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself and I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself, Israelis should never again" go through the horror and "unspeakable" attacks of Oct. 7.
"At the same time what has happened in Gaza in the past 10 months is devastating. So many innocent lives lost. The scale of suffering is heartbreaking,"