^ To be fair, Korn was doing something new and different. I was 13 when they hit my ears and I was not immune to it, not that I'm a proud fan.

I think anything in rock music on a major label that wasn't manufactured by a producer/Malcolm McLaren type mastermind ( which is A. Rare and B. Responsible for such enjoyable sonic achievements as Nevermind the Bollocks and The Monkees) is a known thing because the majors already saw someone doing something captivating people on a small scale and thought they could magnify it for profit. Their A and R guys would be right for seeing Korn and thinking "This is something new and it could be big." Nevermind that I think it wasn't good, or that Deftones was an infinitely better band, they came out of the same moment. Both are only kind of metal.

While I think Korn did popularize 7-string guitars in the mainstream, I doubt those guys came out of the shred scene. They may have been adept at making sound effects, but likely couldn't shred cheese. Morbid Angel were using them, as well.

Krev wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:54 am While I think Korn did popularize 7-string guitars in the mainstream, I doubt those guys came out of the shred scene. They may have been adept at making sound effects, but likely couldn't shred cheese. Morbid Angel were using them, as well.

Horses mouth. Talks about it right at the start.

Ja, Trey was using them on a few songs by 93 ('God of Emptiness', for sure) but most of that record is played on 6 strings in E flat standard if memory serves.

That Korn used 7 string guitars are hardly noteworthy; both Carcass and Entombed tuned down to B on earlier records, Bolt Throwers "Realm of chaos" has the band-including *bass* which frequently sounds like a mess but in a cool way-tuning down to A. I forgot to mention the downtuning as another shallow appropriation of more underground styles.

Anyway, the difference between a gazillion thrash/death/doom/whatever-bands being derivative and unoriginal vs nu metal bands doing the same is simply that the nu-metal bands were in the MAINSTREAM and present on Mtv/radio etc. just like the butt-rock/hair/sleaze bands earlier. Meanwhile, I have no recollection of generic/derivative thrash/death/black/doom/whatever bands occupying the same space: NOONE heard blood feast/Internal bleeding/Dark funeral unless they were actively looking for them; you seem too concerned with the sheer *principle* of being derivative than how it actively appears on the common stage.

To put it differently, peoples dislike of nu-metal (and glam before that) is most likely because people *suffered* the music in ways you don't do in more underground styles unless you make a *self-conscious* effort to hear everything. I think this is fairly obvious but to each their own...

For the record, while Internal Bleeding is a perpetually shitty, derivative band, the *manner* in which they ripped off Suffocation (=removing all fancy, technical shit while mostly sticking to the "fat", mid-tempo slam-riffs) kind of made them the missing link between Suffocation and Slam-death or even death-core (well, many aspects of it). Basically, it's innovation by means of reduction, kind of how Pantera "created" a genre from the 80s mid-tempo thrash break (HUGE simplication on my part but in general, I think it's true: anselmo even "admitted" to it in some televised interview-Sam Dunn?...

jakethesnake wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:32 pm To put it differently, peoples dislike of nu-metal (and glam before that) is most likely because people *suffered* the music in ways you don't do in more underground styles unless you make a *self-conscious* effort to hear everything. I think this is fairly obvious but to each their own...

Well yeah. Dur. But we're not casuals just talking about personal taste here. I'm not saying you should like anything.

I guess I'm arguing that it takes as much effort to "find the music" (or form your own opinion) about scenes that were pushed by the entertainment complex as there is to dig into the underground. Groupthink sucks no matter what scale the group operates on.

The failure of extreme metal to go mainstream (*) could be attributed to many things (IMO breakthrough success is primarily luck / timing) but that scene (amongst others, esp the alt-rock / alt-metal world) walked so numetal could run, no?

(* though the industry did take a punt on the scene in 93 - a few 100k albums by that year but the wave of earache / columbia albums sold badly, so that was that.)

Krev wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:40 pm

Gramsci wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 2:53 pm

Krev wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:04 am FM jakethesnake just articulated why nu-metal was so bad...post-grunge angst plus Helmet riffs. And thus Godsmack was born.

I also was around when this stuff started, and am pretty sure that first Korn album (and maybe Tool's Undertow) was ground zero. Obviously, the rap aspect came from RATM. Tom Morello and Jerry Cantrell were the Hendrix & Page of that movement; Paige Hamilton was its Chuck Berry.

Hamilton would hate that Poor guy, at the time Helmet toured with TJL, Melvins and GVSB etc. His entire thing was crossing Branca with AC/DC and in the end got most known for influencing fucking Coal Chamber.

Oh, and Thrash is really the only right answer, with Black a close second

It's not his fault, although he does tour with bands like Filter now. Even if Metallica quit after AJFA, they probably still would have influenced abject crap like Avenged Sevenfold.

Hamilton has been his own worst enemy creatively post Helmet. What he’s done since 2004 is basically a solo project. He leaned into the shitty metal bands Helmet influenced rather than the noise roots the band came from. I kind of wish he’d dropped the Helmet name and started something new, maybe with a different singer. I think he’s an incredibly talented guy that trapped himself in the aesthetic limitations of one project. But it’s probably paid the bills for the past 20 years.

I’ve spent some time with him over the years when he’s in London and from conversations he was initially really bitter how Helmet collapsed, particularly towards Stanier. He’s mellowed significantly over the years and clearly regrets the petty bickering over money that crashed the band.

Gramsci wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:46 am Hamilton has been his own worst enemy creatively post Helmet. What he’s done since 2004 is basically a solo project. He leaned into the shitty metal bands Helmet influenced rather than the noise roots the band came from. I kind of wish he’d dropped the Helmet name and started something new, maybe with a different singer. I think he’s an incredibly talented guy that trapped himself in the aesthetic limitations of one project. But it’s probably paid the bills for the past 20 years.

I’ve spent some time with him over the years when he’s in London and from conversations he was initially really bitter how Helmet collapsed, particularly towards Stanier. He’s mellowed significantly over the years and clearly regrets the petty bickering over money that crashed the band.

Dunno if you saw this interview, I enjoyed it quite a bit:



Vibe I get is the band were somewhat disillusioned w/ the formulaic aspects of the band's sound and wanted more than drop d riffing in perpetuity, whereas Page seemed to be more biz oriented.

And f'sure, a discography of 2 halves, 100% should have changed the name after the rhythm section left. I think I'd struggle to scrape 1 record's worth of mediocre material together from the last 4 albums.

M.H wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:32 am The failure of extreme metal to go mainstream

Get the funk out!

soz

This is pertinent.