Hey all you fellas who've said Not Crap - if I set up a Pay Pal account will you all send me money?

I promise I won't spend it on smack but apparently a lot of you aren't bothered what it's spent on.

I was in Grand Rapids Michigan the other night, broke as hell, up there to play a show and afterwards as we were loading out we were confronted by this woman panhandler. She didn't look homeless but certianly not a Bently owner either. She starting talking to my guitar player and myself and was very upfront, saying she just wanted a couple of dollars to get a 40 oz from the liquor store down the corner. The two of us gave her whatever change we had in our pockets- probably $1.25 at the most, just to get her to move on and leave us to haul our gear back to the van in peace.

After I gave her this change that I had in my pocket my guitar player goes back in the venue and she says something to me to the effect of is that all you can spare 'cause if I wanted she would suck me off for a few bucks. First off, this woman was dirty and I wouldn't have fucked her with a stunt dick and secondly it was very odd and unconfortable to me. How can somebody be so rundown that they would actually offer sexual favors for the price of a quart of beer? It was creepy.

Later that night at a post show party at the bookers apartment myself and several members of my band and one of the other bands that was on the bill were standing in the parking lot outside her apartment having a cigarette, and we were approached by a couple in their mid to late 40's. They were fairly well dressed, clean looking and very well spoken. They played the broken down car/ stranded with no gas money thing. It was the best rendition I'd ever seen and 90% believed them. Being totally broke myself I didn't give them any money but they managed to get a few bucks off of the other guys and then promptly walked back to their car, started it up and drove off.

I used to work in downtown Chicago and saw more homeless folks and panhandlers than anyone ever should but I can't recall any of them being so bold or outwardly deceptive as these people I ran into that night in Grand Rapids.

Damned if you do...damned if you don't.

I have a bum/friend named Lee that hangs out at the togos near my studio. Lee usta be a taxi driver. I give him a fiver once in a while. He does this bit with me when ever he sees me. He usually fixates on some news story of the week and runs it down for me in his scattered way. It's always entertaining.

I have to say I'm a soft touch for the panhandlers. I don't care what they do with it.

I used to give my change out to whomever asked for it, mostly out of anxiety (I had just moved from the suburbs; the homeless represented something unknown). Definitely some weird, self-important liberalism in the mix as well. Now, last year I faced the terror/liberty of underfunded travel, which left me homeless myself many a cold night. Details aside, the conceit of even 1 Euro in those days would have made a serious difference for me. Choosing between shit rolling tobacco and a loaf of bread is living a fucking hell, no matter how you look at it (and which would you choose in the instance?). I began to see these horrors, and the homeless thereafter had my sympathies. Being broke ruined me in about 5 months, and I actually had agency over my situation. It's hard to comprehend that shit, once all efficacy vanishes.

Thing is, it just feels nicer--more inherently capitalistic, I'd wager--to drop a coin into some busker's can as he slaughters Dylan covers. Like a business transaction. The haggard decayed face leering into your own and demanding a smoke confronts us with something too ghastly. The lurching wreck of a man with no social grace can hardly make us feel that charitable self-satisfaction (pity/horror precedes it), yet that man--too departed from social convention to say 'thanks'--is probably just more desperate. I bought a loaf of bread in Prague--my only meal for the day and night--and this sad vagrant straight up asked for it. I gave it to him because I just couldn't enjoy it, knowing this guy's identity and self-respect were so derided and so focused on such a diminished intent. I didn't think myself a hero--fact is, I could only stand to face the reality on an empty stomach.

So I no longer feel charitable if I give what I have. Sometimes it is just all I can do to tarry eventual self-loathing. Honestly, I usually give away my change just to not have to deal with their hopelessness for too long. I have no constitution for it. And sometimes I just apologize because I have intentions for the $10 in my pocket. Self-interest just trumps pity sometimes, which is just another sad reality. So, in the end, that ruined condition of self-submission before strangers depresses me more than death. It is like the resignation of identity for means of a mere, a hollow, sustenance. OF COURSE many will not see it that way, as it is indeed a case-by-case assessment. Like the guy in Edinburgh who played a toy guitar and wailed all night and didn't even understand you were giving him some money. He wasn't sad at all, still had identity beyond being completely economically ravaged. I'm sure all panhandlers have hope and life, but it doesn't often come out in the act of panhandling. Thus my sorrow. Panhandling is a NOT CRAP and necessary action, but one that ruins me to observe. Whether or not I cough up a buck is pretty irrelevant to how I react to this activity.


Anywho. Salut, friend from the streets of Scotland. And sorry sir, to that man I saw today and only gave a dime when I had about $10 in my back pocket. But, sir, I am lad of many reverses and would get more enjoyment out of seeing Lightning Bolt than imagining you with my $10. Still, I'm sure we'll meet again.
Love,
Charlie.

I've read this thread. It's good. Angus, I wholeheartedly agree with you. BC, you've got got a lot of rage.

I have a problem where, when it comes to giving change, I rarely have any in my pockets so am I going to rifle through my bag, get my purse out, go through it and then wonder how much to give before I spy another person and then I have to recalculate?

Honestly, I dont want to insult people but I odn't want to be taken for a ride. I sometimes but the Big Issue, I used to hang out with vendors. They said it's far better to acknowledge that you've been asked and say 'No thanks' than avert your eyes and walk fast I mean, what are they gonna do to you?
Beggar or BIssue seller, I always look them in the eye.
I believe there are people who are young, homeless and unable to get a job or an opportunity. They are not neccessarily using drugs eitehr. There are hostels ( I used to live opposite one) but they tend to be occupied with more substance users than say, mentally ill people (who perhaps are undiagnosed anyway) making it hard for some 'decent' homeless people to stay and put up with that kind of 'houseshare'.

No permament address, no job/no bank account, no bank account, no job, no address etc...

It's fucking tougher than any of us can imagine, purely on a social level. Read Lee Stringers book for an eye opener. Not everyone is useless.

If one is accepting of the notion that one can only be responsible for, and measured by one's own actions then I'd say that giving money to those who find it impossible to operate comfortably within society as supported/designed/promoted by the majority is the correct response.

Let the recipient concern him/herself with the intricacies of the transaction.

Surely it's infinitely preferable to be the kind of person who is occasionally duped by those not truly in need than the kind of person who greets the superficial face of need with cynicism.

I reckon anyway.

sparky wrote:Over here, you can donate to Shelter with a fixed direct debit of just £5 a month, for example.

Yeah, I do this. I think the minimum they ask for is now £7.50. That's the price of three pints, which I could do with not drinking anyway.
I'll also buy the Big Issue if I have spare change. I've been approached at bus stations before, "My girlfriend's having our baby up in Inverness and I just need £3 to get the bus up there tonight". I didn't really believe him but I think I gave him a quid anyway.

I do sometimes ask people if they want food, and ask them not to spend the money on smack, but addicts are going to tell you whatever you want to hear
anyway.

night_tools wrote:I do sometimes ask people if they want food, and ask them not to spend the money on smack, but addicts are going to tell you whatever you want to hear
anyway.

That's what I think. I don't feel comfortable with giving money that might feed a habit that is keeping someone miserable, which is why I think donations are better.

Regarding the earlier arguments about beggars ripping off those whom they accost, my feeling is that it must be highly demeaning to ask a complete stranger for money. I think that most would have to be feeling low and desperate to do that. Therefore, if someone asks me for money in this way, I take it that they do actually feel they need it (even if it is for the horse).

Faiz made a good point on the first page when he remarked upon his sympathy being diminished when he's borne recent witness to far worse poverty in a much poorer country. I have some Indian friends who are tough on the homeless for this reason.

But the misery in the developed world is real enough. It is true that if someone applies themselves a reasonable amount, they need not be homeless. But a lot of the homeless here have very real psychological problems as well as chronic drug dependency.

You could call them weak for this. But should the frail be punished just for being so?

Adam puts it very well above:

Adam CR wrote:If one is accepting of the notion that one can only be responsible for, and measured by one's own actions then I'd say that giving money to those who find it impossible to operate comfortably within society as supported/designed/promoted by the majority is the correct response.

A lot of us are not equipped to prosper in a given social model. If we are to subscribe to the fragile idea that we live in a civilised society, then we should be supportive of attempts to accomodate and ease the pain of those who do not fit.

sparky wrote:

night_tools wrote:I do sometimes ask people if they want food, and ask them not to spend the money on smack, but addicts are going to tell you whatever you want to hear
anyway.

That's what I think. I don't feel comfortable with giving money that might feed a habit that is keeping someone miserable, which is why I think donations are better.

My way of dealing with this has been to buy the individual some food, rather than throw them a few coppers.

This approach hasn't always been appreciated.