Firstly, how can you extrapolate the attitudes portrayed in lyrics of certain acts within a certain genre of music as homogeneous to a whole ethnic group?

If this is the case do all of white folk believe that every romantic relationship will end up in heartbreak.

Secondly, I still don't see how it's more accepted for homophobia to be prevalant within a society if it is supposedly (see above) accepted within a marginalised and minority ethnic group?

Someone should tell all those people banging on about racial integration. To harmonise any idea all you have to do is make it acceptable within a minority ethnic group and thus is will populate itself within society as a whole.

There is a massive logical jump here, which I am struggling to see.

chairman_hall wrote:Firstly, how can you extrapolate the attitudes portrayed in lyrics of certain acts within a certain genre of music as homogeneous to a whole ethnic group?

If this is the case do all of white folk believe that every romantic relationship will end up in heartbreak.

That was not my inference. I was stating that within a dominant strand of culture associated with black Americans, homophobia is frequently and unapologetically expressed. As I tried to say after this, I think that it is dubious to extend this generalisation to the entire multi-ethnic grouping.

Secondly, I still don't see how it's more accepted for homophobia to be prevalant within a society if it is supposedly (see above) accepted within a marginalised and minority ethnic group?

The evidence that homophobia is more accepted within rap culture is its very prevalence. As to the why it is accepted within wider society, I added a couple of speculative theories, neither of which I hold up as being tested or even likely. I lack the knowledge and the background to offer anything other than speculation as to why it is accepted.

My point is that the prejudice is blatant within rap culture and its continued overt existence is proof that it is still seen as semi-accepted by wider society. Or, at least that a majority are prepared to look over it.

Someone should tell all those people banging on about racial integration. To harmonise any idea all you have to do is make it acceptable within a minority ethnic group and thus is will populate itself within society as a whole.

There is a massive logical jump here, which I am struggling to see.

Homophobia has been the norm throughout modern society up until recently. There is no "making it acceptable" within a grouping; rather it was already there and has yet to be made fully unacceptable. Racism was overtly acceptable in the US and UK until recently, and even now one has to be vigilant and alert to its continuing existence. I think that overt homophobia is more tolerated within Western society than racism (I am not going to go into the less overt and more prevalent forms of racism). Which is again all the more reason to be vocal in attacking it.

I am struggling to see where the logical jump is.

Homophobia is prevalent within society as a whole and within many ethnic groups.

The logical leap that Eating Noddemix is taking seems to suggest to me the reasoning that it's okay to be homophobic because a discriminated social group is perceived to be discriminatory. That that makes it somehow okay.

What sort of fucked up logic is that?

I should not put words in Eating Noddemix's mouth.

However, my reading of what he said (the change from stating it was "acceptable" to "accepted" is vital) is not one of approval. To state that homophobia is more accepted in American black culture (as perceived to be dominated by rap) is not to say that it is acceptable; and there is plenty of evidence to say that it is accepted.

The extrapolation that he goes on to is not to the ethnic grouping, but rather to wider society: this dominant cultural form appears to have been accepted by the majority of wider society, whether through actual participation in it (buying the records) or failure to call homophobic artists out on their prejudice.

Rap has become a dominant cultural form within Western society, and unfortunately there is a lot of homophobia contained within it. It is more accepted since so many people of all ethnic groups have bought into it.

I don't think any of us mean to say it is acceptable; I certainly hope not. But I think that we have to acknowledge that at present it is tolerated. Which is all the more reason to castigate the bigots and push for a shift away from prejudiced thinking.

I forgot to mention Arthur Lee.

Total dick is all I've heard.

chairman_hall wrote:Homophobia is prevalent within society as a whole and within many ethnic groups.

The logical leap that Eating Noddemix is taking seems to suggest to me the reasoning that it's okay to be homophobic because a discriminated social group is perceived to be discriminatory. That that makes it somehow okay.

What sort of fucked up logic is that?

C'mon, Chairman..How old are you?

I'm saying no such thing, that it's "okay to be homophobic" since, in general, black culture is even more homophobic than white culture is. That's an absurd interpretation of what I wrote.

I do stand behind my statement, though, that black culture is more homophobic than white culture is -- at least in America -- and that this in turn makes homophobia more accepted than racism in our society. Why? Because there's simply a greater pool of homophobics out there. Black people, by definition cannot be racist, but they can be homophobic. Also, given the fact that, despite being one of the most discriminated against contingents in our society, black people, in general, are less empathetic/more antipathetic toward gays than whites are, it's easy to see that being gay is less socially acceptable than being black is. I believe most Americans would sooner have a black man in their homes than a gay man. Maybe I'm wrong here but most of my black friends would agree.

sparky wrote:I certainly don't have the knowledge to follow up this back-of-a-fag-packet cultural analysis.

chairman_hall wrote:Firstly, how can you extrapolate the attitudes portrayed in lyrics of certain acts within a certain genre of music as homogeneous to a whole ethnic group?

Someone should tell all those people banging on about racial integration.

Freudian Field Day!

This gay:

Rick Reuben wrote:

Eating Noddemix wrote: I believe most Americans would sooner have a black man in their homes than a gay man.

How gay? How black, for that matter? This black?

If it's this black, then I'm voting for 'gay'.

Tru dat, Reuben X.

White frightened woman with a bunch of gangstas living in her house (wait, is this a reality show already?) would either call the cops or get some black gangbang action. I'm guessing most of them will go for the former, contrary to what the Chappelle show might suggest. But every bitch in Middle America will let Christopher Lowell into her house. Hubby might hate fags but at least they aren't trying to spunk in his wife and daughter or steal his car, you know like all them black bastards do on TV.

tmidgett wrote:

sphincter wrote:

tmidgett wrote:If someone is great or at least very distinctive, I don't care about any of this stuff.

If someone is less than great, he has to be better than otherwise, proportional to how offensive he is as a person. I'm less likely to enjoy someone's art if he is a known shitbag, but it's hardly impossible.

I don't think one's opinions about anything have to mean anything when it comes to one's art. They can be pretty much separate, esp when the art is very good.

I think the ridiculous thing, as noted, is to distinguish between homophobia and racism. It tells you something about yourself if you make this distinction.

That you feel that racism is worse than homophobia. Can others not hold that opinion without you judging them? Is your way of thinking the right way and everyone else is wrong? Would you allow others to hold opinions different to your without holding it against them, perhaps understanding that we all have different values, priorities and codes?

Boy, I hate the 'everything's relative' argument. People have been making it since the invention of the sophomore year.

If someone thinks racism is worse than homophobia, they are wrong.

The two are equally bad.

You have to draw the fucking line somewhere.

Nah. Well done for missing the point though.