rsmurphy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:48 amNot a rhetorical question but should Democrats shoulder at least some of the blame towards the fall of Roe vs Wade?

zorg wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:24 am The idea behind not voting, or voting independent for me is not to throw in the towel. Quite the opposite. It's to fight that instinct to be "Petty, self serving, unrelated to the direction of the country". If you really want to bring about change America, you need to get rid of the monolithic structure of the two party system.

Wood Goblin wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:00 am

rsmurphy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:48 amNot a rhetorical question but should Democrats shoulder at least some of the blame towards the fall of Roe vs Wade?

Emphatic no on this one. Both in rhetoric and action, the Democrats have been consistent on this.

Frankly, this is one area where so-called “leftists” deserve a ton of blame. In 2016, a number of people (including on this forum) insisted that Roe v Wade was the “blackmail” Democrats used to scare voters onto their side. (And it’s cold comfort that we all now realize that Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibi, and Ralph Nader weren’t really leftists after all.)

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:04 am

zorg wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:24 am The idea behind not voting, or voting independent for me is not to throw in the towel. Quite the opposite. It's to fight that instinct to be "Petty, self serving, unrelated to the direction of the country". If you really want to bring about change America, you need to get rid of the monolithic structure of the two party system.

I think that's fair, as long as it's operating in tandem with doing work to bring about that change, all the rest of the time. As an isolated act, it's just throwing toys out of a pram from a position of incredible privilege.

rsmurphy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:37 am They couldn't use same-sex marriage anymore since they all finally got on board in the 21st Century.

rsmurphy wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:37 am

I am not well-versed about the nuts and bolts of how a government operates, and it feels to me that protections should have been put in place long before Trump. There shouldn't have been a weakness in Roe for the right to exploit, and since the weakness was there why wasn't anything done prior to strengthen it?

Lu Zwei wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:02 am I live with 1400$ (after tax) as my monthly income. In that amount I had to include my apartment, bank loan, child welfare and somehow manage as a human being with my needs and hobbies.

ChudFusk wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 1:01 pm

Lu Zwei wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:02 am I live with 1400$ (after tax) as my monthly income. In that amount I had to include my apartment, bank loan, child welfare and somehow manage as a human being with my needs and hobbies.

Damn dude, could I send you some distortion pedals or something?

Lu Zwei wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:02 am My guys, you are having it too good in your life to really know what it means to vote for an improvement of living conditions.

I live with 1400$ (after tax) as my monthly income. In that amount I had to include my apartment, bank loan, child welfare and somehow manage as a human being with my needs and hobbies.

What is my point?

You are having it too good to really care about making it a change come election time.

That said, going the way of a least fascist guy is always a good way to go. That should be the only benchmark.

Also, someone please explain to me how a liberal and a left voter are on the fence on this one!?

Thank you!