Some people complain that illegal immigrants are (a) siphoning off funds for government services without paying taxes, (b) stealing low-paying jobs from working-class white people, (c) and, from a more humane point of view, that, when they do come to work here, their undocumented status means that their employers can take advantage of them (by such means as lax or no OSHA regulations, for example).

In response to (a), actual government services are already drastically underfunded as it is, so I am hoping that more and more illegals will flock to this country, get amnesty, and then start to vote in politicians who favor such things as health care, etc. Besides, they have a right to all of this stuff because the corporate infringements on their pay and health conditions in whatever hell-hole countries they come from are largely the fault of bourgeois Americans anyway. Deal with it, suckers. In response to (b), the divide-and-conquer rhetoric parried by the right, which tries to pit working whites against illegals, is a brilliant way for the owning classes to turn away whites' focus from the fact that *they* are the ones breaking the rules by hiring cheap labor. Using racism as an evasive tactic to avoid any actually circumspect criticism...it's the right's bread an butter. This is a labor/management problem and a minimum wage problem that could be solved by some deft legislation. In response to (c), we need to press for government oversight of meatpacking plants, orange picking companies, etc. and make sure everything is ship shape.

I actively support illegal immigration. The rules and waiting periods are too onerous for them to go through legit processes of citizenship validation, and the living conditions in their home countries are so fucked that we actually owe them what some might even choose to call reparations for centuries of colonial and corporate exploitation.

And they're usually stand-up, brave people. We owe them a lot.

beloveless wrote:NO
I believe there is a legitimate pathway towards citizenship and if one chooses to subvert it they should go home. I don't want to pay for you or your kids wear and tear unless you are contributing towards it as well (you pay taxes and such). I know plenty of skilled laborers who's throats are getting cut by cheap import labor especially in the construction industry. American high steel and concrete guys have mouths to feed too and they can't do it when some jerk hires illegals at seven bucks an hour (if that).

Since this "legitimate pathway" is effectively closed for most immigrants (by absurd quotas), what do you think these people ought to do? I know what they will do, whether you like it or not: They will go where they can get work and suffer whatever hardships are in store for them there. There is no way to secure the open coastline and vast land border that will prevent it, so that's what they will do. The question is not "should we allow it," but "given that it is inevitable, how do we accommodate it?"

UNLESS
We officially recognize, regulate and refine what already is ...
A servant/labor sub- class that is entitled to less rights and privileges as the citizenry. We get maximum labor benefit BEYOND what it costs us in earnings and limit available work to menial labor. , they get to eat and a place to sleep and their kids get to use our schools and health care. NO voting rights, no property, no wage control, No complaints, you can be kicked out at any moment an will be for any sort of felony activity.

So the status quo is okay with you as long as it is written down somewhere? We create a special class of people, immigrants, who (for the first time in history) don't have the legal protections everyone else has, and whom we can underpay and treat like shit? That's your solution?

yaledelay wrote:while I really do not support closed boarders there is a problem that many people who "support immigration" do not bring up, and that is that by letting people into our country to do the jobs at the lowest run of the pole we have effectively created a caste/slave system, these people do not receive the wages americans do, they do not receive the "healthcare" americans do, they can not unionize. As a matter of fact I know of a few cases where some of my illeagle friends have had there employers threaten to call immigration on them.

So I can say that while I have no problem with those people being here, I do think they might be hurting themselves in the long run, and also hurting the public by driving the de-facto min wage down... I have no clue what the solution is though, I wish there was a good one...

They're not hurting themselves, for the most part. It's such a huge risk to come here in the first place that I doubt people would do it if the wage disparity and change of living conditions weren't worth it.

If their employers are being dicks and they can't unionize and they can't receive health care, ya know...those are things we can change! Let's start today. The problem isn't solved by telling them to stay away, or, worse yet, poisoning the public discourse with racist insinuations and class warfare.

SergioGeorgini wrote:Best mexican food place is supported by illegal immigrants here. Just another scapegoat for a failing economy. I have many guatemalans in my neighborhood whom are very friendly and never protest about anything.

you didn't answer the question, but your improper use of 'whom' says it all.

NerblyBear wrote:They're not hurting themselves, for the most part.

yes, and for the most part, they're stand-up brave people.
well that's that then.

NerblyBear wrote:Besides, they have a right to all of this stuff because the corporate infringements on their pay and health conditions

That is flawed logic.

We all pay because some dirtbag corporation is taking advantage of people? Sorry...no. That sounds like a self-perpetuating system that ultimately only benefits Corporate America.

IMO, there is far too little focus on the businesses who capitalize and far too much demonizing the immigrants. For those who want it, the only way things will change is to hold employers responsible for breaking the law. Until that happens I don't see much changing, and IMO, people who want things to change but won't don't support holding employers responsible, don't really want anything to change.

To support a system of illegal immigration (illegal "anything") is silly. There is no accountability held to the employer or the worker. When you keep things underground it only encourages irresponsibility, theft and abuse. I say let them come, but there has to be a system in place that protects everyone.

sunset_gun wrote:That is flawed logic.

We all pay because some dirtbag corporation is taking advantage of people? Sorry...no. That sounds like a self-perpetuating system that ultimately only benefits Corporate America.

IMO, there is far too little focus on the businesses who capitalize and far too much demonizing the immigrants. For those who want it, the only way things will change is to hold employers responsible for breaking the law. Until that happens I don't see much changing, and IMO, people who want things to change but won't don't support holding employers responsible, don't really want anything to change.

To support a system of illegal immigration (illegal "anything") is silly. There is no accountability held to the employer or the worker. When you keep things underground it only encourages irresponsibility, theft and abuse. I say let them come, but there has to be a system in place that protects everyone.

I think we're basically in agreement. We support immigration but we want to crack down on businesses taking advantage of it. I think that you misunderstood my point, though. It's not *one* corporation doing "dirty" stuff down south. It's an entire system of corporate infringement of government regulations and worker rights in Mexico and Latin America. Read up on NAFTA to see what I mean.

And I don't think it's necessarily silly to support illegal actions. After all, draft dodging and civil rights sit-ins were technically "illegal" at the time, but most of us today see those as steps forward to fairness or justice. I'm not an anarchist or a Marxist who sees the law as just a meaningless superstructure meant to justify the bourgeois worldview, but I don't see the law as binding in any way if it doesn't lead to fair results. My support for "illegal immigration" is only support for illegality because these people have been defined by the establishment as criminals. I don't see them as such.

NerblyBear wrote:

sunset_gun wrote:That is flawed logic.

We all pay because some dirtbag corporation is taking advantage of people? Sorry...no. That sounds like a self-perpetuating system that ultimately only benefits Corporate America.

IMO, there is far too little focus on the businesses who capitalize and far too much demonizing the immigrants. For those who want it, the only way things will change is to hold employers responsible for breaking the law. Until that happens I don't see much changing, and IMO, people who want things to change but won't don't support holding employers responsible, don't really want anything to change.

To support a system of illegal immigration (illegal "anything") is silly. There is no accountability held to the employer or the worker. When you keep things underground it only encourages irresponsibility, theft and abuse. I say let them come, but there has to be a system in place that protects everyone.

And I don't think it's necessarily silly to support illegal actions.

I'm taking about systems, not actions. If I support the right for people to come here completely undocumented, to ultimately be taken advantage of, I really don't care about that person. I am opposed to illegal immigration because it encourages exploitation and "shady business"...on the part of the employer and the worker/immigrant. I want them protected, and the only way to do that is through legal means, whatever that may be. And that goes for any sort of illegal system.

Speaking of Immigrant labor, anyone read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle recently?
Still pretty fucking relevant in many regards.

major malling marsupial wrote:

SergioGeorgini wrote:Best mexican food place is supported by illegal immigrants here. Just another scapegoat for a failing economy. I have many guatemalans in my neighborhood whom are very friendly and never protest about anything.

you didn't answer the question, but your improper use of 'whom' says it all.

God, I knew some douchebag would point that out. I was too lazy to edit it, but yeah guess my argument about them being a scapegoat is invalid.

It's true though. Most nations welcome immigrants in a healthy economy to fulfill positions, whether back breaking manual labor or the healthcare industry bringing over doctors. Exactly how do illegal immigrants fuck up your life?