I hope everyone remembers that the first lawyers in this country were not required to attend law school or take a bar exam - they studied law on their own because the had a passion for justice - not money - justice -
why are you going into law?
uh right......
Law School
32I'm in my last year of law school right now and I agree with a lot of the things that have already been said, but there are definitely some variables that I think depend specifically on what you want to do.
For instance grades are super important if you want to have a paying job your second year, or get a job a big firm. Now as to how many people will have those grades, thats a different story. Basically it works on a class rank system and from what my dean has said, the top 5% get the opportunity at the big firms. The other 95% are for the most part in the same boat. So grades are not necessarily the most important thing at least according to my experience. A good example of this is a friend of mine who is in that top 5% and has had many interviews. Employers have yet to ask about her grades. This is because she is working on international human rights and not something like corporate law. So depending on what you want to do, grades can have variable degrees of importance.
Additionally, it is important to have an idea of what you want to do. Working at a big law firm, you will make between $100,000 and $200,000 your first year out. However, you will be working more hours then you could have ever imagined. If you think law school is competitive, wait until you see all the young associates trying to put in face time to make partner. You end up being there so many hours that if you break down the salary to an hourly rate, its really nothing special. On top of that if you don’t make partner in 7 years, you are politely shown the door so they can bring in 2 or 3 new associates for the same price as your salary 7 years down the road.
Don’t get me wrong, I have friends and family that work in these firms and love it. But I have more friends that do this and are miserable. One of them as a matter of fact is quitting law altogether after 3 years of practice at a large corporate law firm. She just got burned out.
One thing that is definitely true is that your anxiety level will skyrocket first year and this is completely normal. Just realize that as you get more comfortable with the "law lifestyle" that it will pass.
As for the complaint of meeting a lot of assholes; there are assholes everywhere so yes, of course there will be some in law school but for the most part i found that there were a lot of really great people at school. That being said, networking at school can be just as important as grades. A lot of jobs are offered based on who you know. Like it or not, this is the nature of the business and there is a strong likelihood that if you practice in the state where you attend school, that you will deal with these people again in the outside world. So try to meet a good group of people that aren't freaking out and start a study group. It will help during exam time.
Finally, as crazy as this sounds, just try to enjoy it. Going to law school was the best decision I ever made. It tested me intellectually, psychologically, physically and emotionally. It has been a great experience that I think I'll miss once its over. All except for finals.
Anyways, if you get nervous, just remember, everyone there is just as nervous as you are.
-Paul
For instance grades are super important if you want to have a paying job your second year, or get a job a big firm. Now as to how many people will have those grades, thats a different story. Basically it works on a class rank system and from what my dean has said, the top 5% get the opportunity at the big firms. The other 95% are for the most part in the same boat. So grades are not necessarily the most important thing at least according to my experience. A good example of this is a friend of mine who is in that top 5% and has had many interviews. Employers have yet to ask about her grades. This is because she is working on international human rights and not something like corporate law. So depending on what you want to do, grades can have variable degrees of importance.
Additionally, it is important to have an idea of what you want to do. Working at a big law firm, you will make between $100,000 and $200,000 your first year out. However, you will be working more hours then you could have ever imagined. If you think law school is competitive, wait until you see all the young associates trying to put in face time to make partner. You end up being there so many hours that if you break down the salary to an hourly rate, its really nothing special. On top of that if you don’t make partner in 7 years, you are politely shown the door so they can bring in 2 or 3 new associates for the same price as your salary 7 years down the road.
Don’t get me wrong, I have friends and family that work in these firms and love it. But I have more friends that do this and are miserable. One of them as a matter of fact is quitting law altogether after 3 years of practice at a large corporate law firm. She just got burned out.
One thing that is definitely true is that your anxiety level will skyrocket first year and this is completely normal. Just realize that as you get more comfortable with the "law lifestyle" that it will pass.
As for the complaint of meeting a lot of assholes; there are assholes everywhere so yes, of course there will be some in law school but for the most part i found that there were a lot of really great people at school. That being said, networking at school can be just as important as grades. A lot of jobs are offered based on who you know. Like it or not, this is the nature of the business and there is a strong likelihood that if you practice in the state where you attend school, that you will deal with these people again in the outside world. So try to meet a good group of people that aren't freaking out and start a study group. It will help during exam time.
Finally, as crazy as this sounds, just try to enjoy it. Going to law school was the best decision I ever made. It tested me intellectually, psychologically, physically and emotionally. It has been a great experience that I think I'll miss once its over. All except for finals.
Anyways, if you get nervous, just remember, everyone there is just as nervous as you are.
-Paul
Law School
33...
Last edited by solum_Archive on Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law School
34The reason lawyers can be expensive is because it's expensive to become a lawyer. If I work my ass off and go into 6 figure debt for 3 intense years of full time law school, you bet your ass I'm charging good money for my time. I invested in it, I want a return. Look, you educate yourself to better yourself, and bettering yourself often means making more money than before. There's nothing wrong with making honest money.
Not all lawyers are "liars". Dishonesty isn't synonymous with jurisprudence, just politics. This shows a misconception of what law and justice are. Justice isn't always truth and that's the cold hard fact. Justice is about facts, interpretation of those facts, and applying those facts to particular codes, statutes and regulations. In this country you don't have a right to truth, but you have a right to justice, which is why we have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Burden of proof is on the accuser.
Sure law is sometimes a smokescreen for politics and petty attempts at grabbing some cash, but it can also be positive.
And before someone quotes and/or paraphrases Shakespeare ("Let's kill the lawyers") in a diatribe against lawyers, understand that particular quote is out of context and what was meant was that the character wanted to wreak havoc and anarchy and that killing lawyers was the first thing to do in pursuit of that goal. So using it is like using the bible to justify whatever atrocity you like to perform.
Disclaimer: I never went to law school, I am not a lawyer, but I play one on TV, and I am smart enough to understand some of what it involves.
Finally, Santiago Durango of Big Black is, the last I heard, a civil rights lawyer in Evanston Illinois, defending the little guy. How much more punk rock can you get without Ian MacKaye running for office?
Not all lawyers are "liars". Dishonesty isn't synonymous with jurisprudence, just politics. This shows a misconception of what law and justice are. Justice isn't always truth and that's the cold hard fact. Justice is about facts, interpretation of those facts, and applying those facts to particular codes, statutes and regulations. In this country you don't have a right to truth, but you have a right to justice, which is why we have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Burden of proof is on the accuser.
Sure law is sometimes a smokescreen for politics and petty attempts at grabbing some cash, but it can also be positive.
And before someone quotes and/or paraphrases Shakespeare ("Let's kill the lawyers") in a diatribe against lawyers, understand that particular quote is out of context and what was meant was that the character wanted to wreak havoc and anarchy and that killing lawyers was the first thing to do in pursuit of that goal. So using it is like using the bible to justify whatever atrocity you like to perform.
Disclaimer: I never went to law school, I am not a lawyer, but I play one on TV, and I am smart enough to understand some of what it involves.
Finally, Santiago Durango of Big Black is, the last I heard, a civil rights lawyer in Evanston Illinois, defending the little guy. How much more punk rock can you get without Ian MacKaye running for office?
it's not the length, it's the gersch
Law School
35susanteller wrote:In each and every decision the Supreme Court makes they are to rule according to the will of the people,
i repeat. this is incorrect.
show me where in the constitution it says that the Supreme Court is supposed to rule according to the will of the people. That's what the legislature is for. The SC is a check on that. A safety against the unjust rule of the majority.
so you are, uh, wrong. no matter how many times you say otherwise.
Law School
36Linus Van Pelt wrote:
Question for lawyers: is it the case that all lawyers are required to do a certain amount of pro bono work?
not in any of the states I am licensed in. one is "encouraged" but not required to do pro bono work. frankly, the concept is given lip service by most. not all, but most. it is hard to find the time. some firms will treat pro bono hours the same as regular billable hours, so you are not penalized for taking the time to do some pro bono work.
there is some cool stuff though. volunteer lawyers for the arts, for one.
Law School
37El Protoolio wrote:Finally, Santiago Durango of Big Black is, the last I heard, a civil rights lawyer in Evanston Illinois, defending the little guy. How much more punk rock can you get without Ian MacKaye running for office?
He works (at last correspondence) in the appellate division of the public defender's office in Decatur, I think. He spends his time trying to keep people wrongly/unjustly convicted from being executed by our state. He has worked on cases reviewed during the Great Review by Governor Ryan.
When I think of what he does, and what I do, and their relative worth to society, I am truly humbled.
Salut! Santiago Alonzo Durango! To fight for the little guy against the whole State of Illinois and its awesome power! To do the right thing for people who have no other options! So great! Salut!
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.
Law School
38Susan Teller,
As a liberal, I thank our collective national lucky stars that the Supreme Court does not, nor is it supposed to, rule according to the "will of the people". How do you suppose cases like Brown v. Board, Loving v. Virginia, or Roe v. Wade would have been decided if the Supreme Court ruled according to this standard you propose?
and,
It would be stupid if I were to note that you are an actress, and then mention Tom Cruise and Julia Roberts, and jump to the unwarranted conclusion that you got into acting just for the money. It would be foolish if I were to make a statement like, "I hope everyone remembers that the first actors in this country were not required to join the union or build equity - they performed on their own because they had a passion for theater - not money - theater." It would be idiotic for me to assume that you wished to be paid millions of dollars per picture in Hollywood, when the truth might be that you would refuse to act in a major studio's motion picture, or refuse to accept more than scale for your work. I don't know what your motivations or principles are, so I wouldn't make such assumptions. I'll note that you don't know what my motivations or principles are. Just as there are members of your profession and my future profession who are paid far beyond what is commensurate with their contribution to society, so too are there members of both professions who work hard, do good, and are paid more reasonably.
Vockins,
I have thought about teaching. I am still thinking about teaching, actually. I probably won't stop thinking about teaching, until and unless I try it and hate it.
Solum,
This is better answered by one of the lawyers here, but I believe a defense attorney in the US is allowed to continue to defend a client in a not-guilty plea, even if he or she knows that the client is guilty. I do not know if the attorney is required to do so. This time next year, I expect I'll know the answer to both of these questions!
As a liberal, I thank our collective national lucky stars that the Supreme Court does not, nor is it supposed to, rule according to the "will of the people". How do you suppose cases like Brown v. Board, Loving v. Virginia, or Roe v. Wade would have been decided if the Supreme Court ruled according to this standard you propose?
and,
It would be stupid if I were to note that you are an actress, and then mention Tom Cruise and Julia Roberts, and jump to the unwarranted conclusion that you got into acting just for the money. It would be foolish if I were to make a statement like, "I hope everyone remembers that the first actors in this country were not required to join the union or build equity - they performed on their own because they had a passion for theater - not money - theater." It would be idiotic for me to assume that you wished to be paid millions of dollars per picture in Hollywood, when the truth might be that you would refuse to act in a major studio's motion picture, or refuse to accept more than scale for your work. I don't know what your motivations or principles are, so I wouldn't make such assumptions. I'll note that you don't know what my motivations or principles are. Just as there are members of your profession and my future profession who are paid far beyond what is commensurate with their contribution to society, so too are there members of both professions who work hard, do good, and are paid more reasonably.
Vockins,
I have thought about teaching. I am still thinking about teaching, actually. I probably won't stop thinking about teaching, until and unless I try it and hate it.
Solum,
This is better answered by one of the lawyers here, but I believe a defense attorney in the US is allowed to continue to defend a client in a not-guilty plea, even if he or she knows that the client is guilty. I do not know if the attorney is required to do so. This time next year, I expect I'll know the answer to both of these questions!
Why do you make it so scary to post here.
Law School
40Chapter Two wrote:It's a hoax.
Oh!
Never mind then.
Why do you make it so scary to post here.