I haven't gone, but a friend of mine is big on it. Some of the artists who work there seem great, but - like most people here have intoned - there is definitely a mindless 'hippy' element that ends up being a comfortable spot for drugged-out idiots...not that I haven't spent some time in that spot myself. Maybe I'll try it next year...

I admit it... These guys are too cool for me. Burningman rules!

yut wrote:At a certain level, it seems like it could be fun, but I just can't stand those people. I think living in SF for part of my life has really made me deteste the fakeness and group-think (these people tend to be vegans, have odd colored hair, piercings, tatoos, make very bad art, listen to electronic dance music).

The "very bad art" comment deserves to be amplified. I've known more than my fair share of people who partake in the "freak scene," and the ratio of art created to art worth being viewed is worse than any other settting in the world outside of painting classes at retirement homes.

Wallace Stevens worked in insurance. William Carlos Williams was a pediatrician. Mark E. Smith worked on the docks and dons pressed slacks and button-up shirts. Norman Mailer studied engineering. Borges was a librarian. All of those people have made art 1000 times more interesting and 1000 times more transgressive than even the very best hippie "artist."

Fuck that burning man shit. The only reason they start such a big, blazing fire is so that the light is adequate for late-night navel gazing.

Wood Goblin wrote:

yut wrote:At a certain level, it seems like it could be fun, but I just can't stand those people. I think living in SF for part of my life has really made me deteste the fakeness and group-think (these people tend to be vegans, have odd colored hair, piercings, tatoos, make very bad art, listen to electronic dance music).

The "very bad art" comment deserves to be amplified. I've known more than my fair share of people who partake in the "freak scene," and the ratio of art created to art worth being viewed is worse than any other settting in the world outside of painting classes at retirement homes.

Wallace Stevens worked in insurance. William Carlos Williams was a pediatrician. Mark E. Smith worked on the docks and dons pressed slacks and button-up shirts. Norman Mailer studied engineering. Borges was a librarian. All of those people have made art 1000 times more interesting and 1000 times more transgressive than even the very best hippie "artist."

Fuck that burning man shit. The only reason they start such a big, blazing fire is so that the light is adequate for late-night navel gazing.

I'm definitely with you here. The ability of 'art' to be cranked out constantly, along with the standard commercial art assaults, etc. make me extremely skeptical of any new 'art' at all. Art ranging across the field, that is...painting, photography, music/sound design, literature, poetry, etc. I'm simply getting too old, and my time is becoming too limited, to be able to sift through all the garbage I can access...

Unfortunately, I end up passing up the genuine talent as a result. That's why I pretty much stick to direct reccommendations.

You are so right on, it's not even funny... I just saw the Fall on their last tour. Man, Mark E. Smith is one f'ed up dude... But you wouldn't gather that by the way he looks. He was severely trashed when I saw them, but still competant enough to fuck with the bass players amp in time to the music...

When I was younger, I went through a phase of "hipsterism" during the pre-grunge years (88-early 90's). I had lots of piercings and long hair and wore flannels and ripped up cut off shorts, dirty boots, etc.. Lots of band t-shirts...

There are positives to this. It was easier to meet women like that. But there are so many more women that are not into that. They don't want to bring Johnny Bongtoker home to the folks... All of the women I met in those years were flakes and pretty lame anyway. I think there are self-esteem issues with many people who need to differentiate themselves based on appearance... Also hints (or maybe not so subtle) of narcissism.

Beyond that, if I went into a store, I often noticed there was much more surveillance... as if I looked like the type who would shoplift or worse...

I even remember one professor, who in a 300 person lecture class, started making fun of the fact that I had so many piercings and wore "combat boots", and he said Plato would think that is crap (?!?)

I think it is much better to fly under the radar and not be so obvious. If you get pulled over and have something you shouldn't have, it's better not to have the dancing bear Greatful Dead stickers on the bumper (never my bag, but I'm trying to make a point)

The problem with much of Burningman art and culture is that it is so obvious -- LOOK AT ME. I AM SO WEIRD!!! LOOK AT ME DO WEIRD CARNIE SIDE SHOW CRAP.

I guess everyone has to go through this phase. I did. I regret it. I have all these holes in my ears now, and people often ask "Wow, did you used to be some punk rocker or something"... I don't even know what to say to that, or how I can describe what category my look fit under...

The only thing that irks me is people who glommed on to the piercings and whatnot, who think I am a dork... After Tommy Lee got into that shit, it was pretty much time to hang that look up... Anyone who thinks they are hot shit because they got a bunch of piercings in 1998 or something is just a douche. Even when I did it in the late 80's it was already kind of lame.

None of this stuff matters. The best artists are usually the ones that pay little attention to their clothing or hair, and just focus on the art. The shows are better too, because you don't have the presence of idiot hipsters...

Another thing that pulled me out of "hipsterism" was seeing bands like Tar and later on Polvo. These bands made amazing music and were just "normal" looking jeans & t-shirt guys. They made music that was more sinister or quirky than anything any green-haired dreadlock MC/DJ lame-o can do on his turdtable.

This made a huge impression on me. Huge. In fact, I think I cut my hair the same week I saw Tar.

One could say I am conforming to a certain subculture... But really, the essence of this culture is to just not focus on superficial shit like clothes or hair...

The fact that someone that looked like a refugee from a Dexy's Midnight Runner's video wouldn't sell me drink tickets because I was wearing a button down shirt is fucking ridiculous. The guy smelled like a butt...

yut wrote:
One could say I am conforming to a certain subculture... But really, the essence of this culture is to just not focus on superficial shit like clothes or hair...

The 'advance' I've made here, once I realised I was on the 'outside' of the culture I was born into, was that there is a difference between the social concept of a culture and the act of producing material that can be considered as culture. It's all 'culture', right? It seems as something turns into crap as soon as the people involved start targeting an audience/demographic/whatever outside of themselves. Remember those old Bugs Bunny cartoons? The old ones were great, and the animators go on record as saying that they were just trying to amuse themselves. As soon as they started orienting them towards children, well, they started to suck. Mostly.

I don't necessarily see this as some 'triumph of egoism', or anything like that. It seems more likely that we simply cannot comprehend something outside of ourselves well enough to produce materials that can relate to it well.

As a result, I have a couple of cool recordings of OK bands I've been in, a closetful of decent gear, some fun live experiences, and no girlfriend. Could be better, could be worse. The main pain is that I don't have a band at all right now. That makes me crazy.

yut wrote:[

You just had to throw in a prog reference.Always with the godamned prog. Jesus marble cake christ!

Van der graf man, you just don't get it. You should of put a picture of Fripp with a button down without a collar. Now that is some gae shit right there.


Burning Man is not for me. But let 'em do what they want. They aint hurting nobody. Stinky hippies. Not Crap.

Yut,

We seem to have had similar past experiences, though you on the punk rocker side and me on the more hippyish (dreadlocks and all that). Now, I mostly wear button-up shirts - to me they're the most comfortable and, especially here in too hot Taiwan, cool (literal meaning) shirts to wear - have relatively short hair, and the earring I had for nearly ten years recently fell out and I really can't be bothered to get another one. In the last couple of years I've worked as a musician on cruise ships, travelled to SE Asia and India, and now find myself teaching English to kids in Taiwan - a freakish appearance just doesn't work. It's funny when I show people here pictures of what I used to look like, they just don't get it, but I don't regret it. It was a stage for me; needing to find validation for myself through externalities. Now I just don't care. If someone judges me by how I look then their loss not mine.

I still have a lot of friends part of the hippyish subculture, and during a visit back to Canada this summer I spent a fair bit of time with them. The ones I've known for a long time seemingly couldn't care less what I look like now (though not shaving somewhat takes care of that), and those I was just meeting for the first time, well some didn't seem to express much interest in getting to know me, perhaps because of my not wearing the 'right' clothes, but then a lot of them did and I made some good friends.

Basically I've just grown past caring. I don't at all mind people with piercings, freaky hair styles or clothes; if that's what they're feeling good for them. I just don't consider myself, and don't have much of a desire to be, a freak. Drawing attention to myself isn't my thing, but that there are such people in the world, well I think it makes it a hell of a lot more interesting. That's why I disagree with your (and others) dismissal of Burning Man. Yes there are poseurs, anti-conformity conformists and hypocrites as there are in seemingly all groups that I have ever come across, but then there are the genuinely cool, freaky people, who could really care less what you look like, are super artsy, and who are doing some really interesting, pushing-the-boundaries kind of thing. I don't have the energy for it mostly, but again I'm so glad that there are people like this in the world doing weird, crazy things making the world making more interesting. The poseurs will always be there, but that shouldn't prevent us from seeing the good people who at the very least do a great job of pissing off the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. ANYONE who does that has found at least some redemption in my books.

THERE ARE LIKE FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE HERE WITH BANDS THAT SOUND LIKE SHELLAC AND THE JESUS LIZARD AND A MASSIVE HARD-ON FOR TRAVIS BEAN BITCHING ABOUT HOW SOME OTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE DOING A DIFFERENT COLLECTION OF RANDOM THINGS ARE UNORIGINAL CONFORMISTS AND THE IRONIC FORCE IS GOING TO MAKE MY FUCKING HEAD EXPLODE.

On a more specific note, a dude I know shot us an email describing some of his favorite things...

The Flaming Lotus Girls' Flaming Snake and Egg - a two acre surface was covered by the skeleton of a giant prehistoric snake with an animatronic head that could be controlled by people on the ground. Every vertebrae was hand-forged and over three hundred of them, complete with frame and controllers, had a propane nozzle. That propane nozzle shot bursts of fire ten feet into the air in a preprogrammed sequence. In addition, every supporting "leg" of the piece had seven button on it that could be pressed to make that section's vertebrae shoot fire. If enough people pressed those buttons, the computer would override the button-pushers and fire a sequence of flame jets until all the flames went at once. The egg would crack open and reveal a baby serpent every night at midnight, complete with flames.

I mean, this shit sounds like the U of C Scav Hunt on acid, squared.