matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

kerble wrote:

matthew wrote:If there's one thing about being an American that is so disconcerting, it's our notion of "race". I'll concur with Albini that most Americans have been influenced by this notion culturally. It's a curious thing.

I for one think that moment you accept the very notion of "race" itself, you become a "racist". So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race". It's a pernicious one.

that's very easy for you to say, white man.

I can not do such a thing because race effects me all the time. It has since I was a child, regardless of my own personal beliefs (which, by the way are that race is very real). I guarantee you that Randall's (H-GM) stories will be worse. As long as people are being treated differently because of their race, it would do you well to address it with the seriousness it deserves. it's literally the least you can do.

pretending it does not exist is part of the problem and it diminishes the value of people who have to deal with it as a very real thing.


Faiz

So what are you saying? That there is an inherent thing in the human species called "race" which involves things like skin color and the shape of your nose, etc? I don't agree, Faiz...........a midnight-dark Nigerian can mate with a blonde-blue Scandinavian and have viable, healthy offspring because they both belong to the same damn species. If on the other hand you are equivocating "race" with cultural differences, ok.......but that's a stretch of the word "race".

I don't pretend that people are treated unjustly- that is simply the human condition and thus hard to ignore. I am merely saying that if people realized that phenotypical differences in their fellow men are merely part of the spice of life and not indicative of any inherent superiority or inferiority, we'd all get along a bit better.

steve wrote:

matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

Like yourself? Who are you kidding?

My grandfather is a psychologist, currently 90% retired. Back during the 1950's he was part of a movement to integrate the (still to this day) predominantly white, pachydermal NW Chicago suburb of Park Ridge. Also, my great-uncle was a monsignor in the Chicago archdiocese who was involved in the Civil Rights movement in the late 50's an early 60's. He even stood arm-in-arm with MLK at Soldier Field and sang "We Shall Overcome" when King came to Chicago. My grandparents still have the newspaper clipping of it.

My family and I know a thing or two about "racial problems".

matthew wrote:So what are you saying? That there is an inherent thing in the human species called "race" which involves things like skin color and the shape of your nose, etc? I don't agree, Faiz...........a midnight-dark Nigerian can mate with a blonde-blue Scandinavian and have viable, healthy offspring because they both belong to the same damn species. If on the other hand you are equivocating "race" with cultural differences, ok.......but that's a stretch of the word "race".

species compatibility is irrelevant. there is a distinct social construct based on race and the physical attributes thereof. Social situations deal with how humans interact, and race often dictates how well or how poorly people treat each other. This is undeniable. There is still a stigma involved with those of darker skin, even within groups of people that all have dark skin.

I'm Indian, for fuck's sake--arguably the socially 'whitest' of the brown folks, and it's still been horrible. I don't wish for pity, because that's the last thing I want. I'm an intelligent, self-actualized person who is comfortable with and proud of my race. Pity is for assholes. I am completely offended by this "race doesn't exist" argument, because I've never seen it argued by someone who wasn't white. It's something you would NEVER understand unless you were in my or a similar position to do so. How dare you.

I don't pretend that people are treated unjustly- that is simply the human condition and thus hard to ignore. I am merely saying that if people realized that phenotypical differences in their fellow men are merely part of the spice of life and not indicative of any inherent superiority or inferiority, we'd all get along a bit better.

it's a shame it will NEVER work that way. Not in 1 million years. so I put it to myself and all others to find an alternative solution for people to be more agreeable with each other. your "race doesn't exist" solution will not cause that equality to happen. Ever. In fact, it keeps things status quo. It's bullshit.

matthew wrote:

steve wrote:

matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

Like yourself? Who are you kidding?

I don't think you understood the nuances of that sentence. Steve is spot-on.

matthew wrote:My grandfather is a psychologist, currently 90% retired. Back during the 1950's he was part of a movement to integrate the (still to this day) predominantly white, pachydermal NW Chicago suburb of Park Ridge.

your grandfather was also 100% white, which excludes him, by default, from having to deal with the bullshit that darker folks in this country have had to put up with and still put up with to this day.

matthew wrote:Also, my great-uncle was a monsignor in the Chicago archdiocese who was involved in the Civil Rights movement in the late 50's an early 60's. He even stood arm-in-arm with MLK at Soldier Field and sang "We Shall Overcome" when King came to Chicago. My grandparents still have the newspaper clipping of it.

and that's great that they did that, but them standing with MLK also indicates that he understood that race was a real issue. It's not imaginary, has never been treated as such and never will be. No one had to fight to get white people the right to vote. If race isn't real, why did we go through all of that? Did you ever get tied to a tree and beaten up and called "nigger" because you was white like my friend has because he was black? Nope. you sure didn't, and you don't know any white people who have.

My family and I know a thing or two about "racial problems".

but from an outsider's perspective. they know nothing about the real thing and how it feels. Nothing. Empathy is not the same as going through it.


seriously, you are wrong.



Faiz

It's probably impossible for people who aren't of a race other than 'white' to fully understand the dilemma of being in an ethnic minority in this country or any other for that matter.

I think what Kerble is trying to communicate is that he is from India, he looks different from white people, so no matter how many white sympathizers he meets in his lifetime, he will always be treated differently by some and may actually suffer serious discrimination that we as white people can never fully grasp, as we will never experience it.

Think of all the stupid cliches attached to different ethnic groups, the easy jokes that are told, white people don't ever have these jokes directed at them, they are never the butt, they hold the gun in most cases.

kerble wrote:it's a shame it will NEVER work that way. Not in 1 million years. so I put it to myself and all others to find an alternative solution for people to be more agreeable with each other. your "race doesn't exist" solution will not cause that equality to happen. Ever. In fact, it keeps things status quo. It's bullshit.

Faiz

I agree with you. It never will because people are imperfect and prone to do bad things.......original sin. C'est la vie.

I do however maintain that dumping the whole notion of "race" is a good thing and almost imperative thing to do. Once you realize that superficial differences are just that- superficial- you see things in a whole new light.

etch wrote:Think of all the stupid cliches attached to different ethnic groups, the easy jokes that are told, white people don't ever have these jokes directed at them, they are never the butt, they hold the gun in most cases.

You're either Irish and drunk or Polish and stupid to say that.

(I'm kidding, I just wanted to give you those "white people ethnic jokes" for the sake of discussion).

You succinctly stated what I was trying to get across. cheers, etch.

matthew wrote:

kerble wrote:it's a shame it will NEVER work that way. Not in 1 million years. so I put it to myself and all others to find an alternative solution for people to be more agreeable with each other. your "race doesn't exist" solution will not cause that equality to happen. Ever. In fact, it keeps things status quo. It's bullshit.

Faiz

I agree with you. It never will because people are imperfect and prone to do bad things.......original sin. C'est la vie.

I do however maintain that dumping the whole notion of "race" is a good thing and almost imperative thing to do. Once you realize that superficial differences are just that- superficial- you see things in a whole new light.

And since you see that as a non-viable option, we're back to square one.
your "solution" isn't practical or realistic. Race still exists. There are (and have been) steps that can be taken to make things better, but nothing about it is simple, nor does it deserve a simplistic, reductionist response. "Everybody" agreeing to this ridiculous notion that race isn't really a thing won't work, because race is very much a real thing.

kerble wrote:"Everybody" agreeing to this ridiculous notion that race isn't really a thing won't work, because race is very much a real thing.

Faiz, don't let our beautiful dream die.

kerble wrote:Barry White and Frank Black doing "Ebony and Ivory"

kerble wrote:

etch wrote:Think of all the stupid cliches attached to different ethnic groups, the easy jokes that are told, white people don't ever have these jokes directed at them, they are never the butt, they hold the gun in most cases.

You're either Irish and drunk or Polish and stupid to say that.

(I'm kidding, I just wanted to give you those "white people ethnic jokes" for the sake of discussion).

You succinctly stated what I was trying to get across. cheers, etch.

Perhaps you can design a device which can crank out better white people jokes, Faiz.....after all, Indians are well-known for their engineering tact.....and for the record, I have both Irish and Polish ancestry, but I'm neither drunk nor stupid.

[at this point, you're supposed to laugh]

Ultimately the reason that Western culture (or "white" culture, if you like) "holds the gun" is simply because it is dominant culture in the world, though it's not exactly a homogeneous culture.

Ech.......I think that all this talk about holding guns and black people being strung up and never "being in my shoes" is utterly irrelevant.

steve wrote:

matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

What are they?
I'm very curious of knowing them .