stevenstillborn wrote:

Uncle Ovipositor wrote:This year the winner will come out of the west. Again. And this trend will continue until y'all get some decent hockey clubs out east.

This is patently false. The West has, like, two good teams. The Northeast and Atlantic Divisions were the strongest Divisions in hockey this year. Not only that, but when was the last time the West won 2 in a row? Last year was Anaheim, '06 was Carolina, '04 was Tampa, '03 Devils. '01 and '02 were Western teams. So where's this "West is the best" trend?

Detroit, Anaheim, San Jose, Calgary, and Colorado. All are cup contenders over the coming years. Maybe even Dallas. In 4 years I see Chicago making a serious go for it, maybe the Yotes as well. I've watched a lot of games this season, and the east does not compete. Check back in in June if you like, but there's no competition this year, and there wasn't last year (and for the record I hate Anaheim, but the Sens had nothing to offer).

Compare the regular season records of both conferences and there's no comparison over the past 2 seasons. The top 2 point totals? West. Inter-conference games? West. Total goals per season? West.

Superstars? They're all out east, sure. But the percentage of secondary scoring in the west is much higher. I haven't added up the stats, but I would hazard a guess that there are more teams with 15+ and 20+ goal scorers out west than there are out east, because out here all lines have to deliver.

Coaches? Give me the west. Goalies? I'll put Turco/Luongo/Gigere/Nabokov/Brisgalov/Legacy/Hasek/Osgood up against Lundquist/Brodeur/Price any day of the week.

Since the dissolution of Buffalo last summer, the east doesn't have a team that can match the speed and talent that the cream of the west has going for it. The Habs are as close as you come, and as great as they are they will crumble if they make the finals against anybody in the west - as they proved in the regular season (although the Sharks/Habs game in January was the best hockey I've seen all year).

Even though all of the media's out there and pumping up the eastern conference because that's what they see, the stats tell a different story.

The way trading works in the NHL that could change quickly, but for some reason it hasn't. I don't have any good explanation as to why this is, but it is. The new schedule where all teams play each other will probably affect this in the near future, although I think the result for next year will be that inter conference games will be even more lopsided in 2008/2009, but time will tell.

Feel free to pick this argument back up in June. And next year. And probably the year after that.

Uncle Ovipositor wrote:The way trading works in the NHL that could change quickly, but for some reason it hasn't.

In one year. You're making this into a trend that isn't there.
That said, while there certainly appear to be better scoring lines out West, as I watch the games I do not get the "all lines have to be good" feel out there. I get the "our Defense has serious holes" feel. I'm not even predicting an East win. While both Detroit and San Jose had difficulty in the first round, over the regular season they were far and away the best teams in the West. Look at the point totals. During the last week of the season, Detroit and San Jose beat out the East, but the next six teams in points were out East. Should San Jose or Detroit beat Montreal? Sure, they have the skill. That doesn't make the West better as a Conference.

I'm with Uncle Ovipositor on this one. The West is the more challenging/better teams conference.

Go Wings!

russ wrote:I'm with Uncle Ovipositor on this one. The West is the more challenging/better teams conference.

Go Wings!

To be honest, last night I was being a little defensive. If I try to look objectively at the Conferences, I'd actually say they're pretty evenly matched.
That said, my real objection was the idea that this was some trend that he had picked up on. It's not a trend: it's one year. The East and West have traded the Cup pretty consistently over the last 10 or 15 years and I've seen nothing to convince me that the West is doing that much better right now.

That Lidstrom goal on Sunday!

A thing of beauty, as they say.

stevenstillborn wrote:

russ wrote:I'm with Uncle Ovipositor on this one. The West is the more challenging/better teams conference.

Go Wings!

To be honest, last night I was being a little defensive. If I try to look objectively at the Conferences, I'd actually say they're pretty evenly matched.
That said, my real objection was the idea that this was some trend that he had picked up on. It's not a trend: it's one year. The East and West have traded the Cup pretty consistently over the last 10 or 15 years and I've seen nothing to convince me that the West is doing that much better right now.

Since the lockout I think better hockey has been played out west. Cups aside, there's a real statistical tilt towards the west in the regular season.

Look at the wins in games against opposing conferences: the west has cleaned up post-lockout. Point totals on the year? 6 of the top 10 were out west. The west's weakest division (central) still put 2 teams into the playoffs while the east's (southern) put the caps in only by virtue of them winning their division.

You can argue that those stats don't mean much because most play happens in conference (thank god they're changing that). I generally agree, I do think they're telling.

But more interesting than stats, it seems like there's a lot more range of styles out west than in the east. A couple of incredible puck possession teams, a couple of trappers, a couple of stretch play rope-a-dopers. Most of what I see out east is dump and chase with an emphasis on garbage goals - which Calgary does as well as anyone.

The Atlantic is pretty evenly matched internally, but the Northeast? Seriously? You mean the Northeast with the Sens, Leafs, Sabres, and Bruins? Or is there some other Northeast division that I'm unaware of? So the east this season was basically the Atlantic + 2. Last season had a little better distribution, but not much.

The west has its dogs as well, but short of LA, Edmonton, and maybe St. Louis, they are all competitive and improving. I can't say that for the Panthers.

At least we don't have Avery. That alone should make the difference - especially since you're from New Jersey.

I'm not saying this because I have some vested interest in the west. I like the Sharks but I'm keenly aware of their inconsistency; I like the Wings but don't know whether they'll keep it together through the next round. Hell - I'd love to see the Pens win and start a dynasty, or see the Devils take the cup just because I like watching Brodeur play hockey. But since the lockout the west has been statistically better and more interesting to watch. Less so this year than last, but still statistically true. More inter-conference play will only serve to highlight this. That might cause more of a shift toward parity - which would be great to see - but until then...

Luckily for all involved, stats are out the window for the cup.

Uncle Ovipositor wrote:The west's weakest division (central) still put 2 teams into the playoffs while the east's (southern) put the caps in only by virtue of them winning their division.

I did. The West has three teams that had records of 7-3 or better against the East. The East had two teams with records of 7-3 or better against the West. Most of both conferences were closer to .500 against the opposite conference. That sounds...pretty fuckin' even to me. Your point about Avery is a good one though. Fuck that guy.
Your taste in hockey is clearly different from mine (I like hard workin' hockey, dump n' chase, fights, hits, all that stuff), so I will respectfully disagree with you about the "more interesting" hockey being played out West. And no, Calgary does not play dump n' chase as well as anyone. There's a team that has Aginla and...yeah, they have Aginla. They'd get eaten alive in the East. Unless they were in the Southeast...in which case they'd win.
And the Caps didn't only get in because they won the Southeast. They would've been the 8th seed if they hadn't instead of the third. Sort of similar to the Wild being the 3rd seed in the West. And look, they both went out in the first round! Amazing.
People out West, concerning every sport I follow, have a victim-complex where they think they're better than the East and get no respect. Usually it's partially justified. But I can tell you, that all I've heard all year is how much better the West is, and I don't think the #s bear it out, at least not to the degree that hockey "experts" seem to suggest.

stevenstillborn wrote:Your taste in hockey is clearly different from mine (I like hard workin' hockey, dump n' chase, fights, hits, all that stuff), so I will respectfully disagree with you about the "more interesting" hockey being played out West. And no, Calgary does not play dump n' chase as well as anyone. There's a team that has Aginla and...yeah, they have Aginla. They'd get eaten alive in the East. Unless they were in the Southeast...in which case they'd win.

I was surprised by how good Calgary played in this series. Most of the season it's been Iginla, Kipper, and Phaneuf, but they put together a solid series against the Sharks, for all of the reasons you like hockey. Their checking line was unreal. If they can just get a couple more pieces in place and they'll be serious contenders. I don't think they'd have any problems playing in the Atlantic, and could clean up in the Northeast (unless the Leafs really bring it next season....).

People out West, concerning every sport I follow, have a victim-complex where they think they're better than the East and get no respect. Usually it's partially justified. But I can tell you, that all I've heard all year is how much better the West is, and I don't think the #s bear it out, at least not to the degree that hockey "experts" seem to suggest.

Meh. Stats is stats. I'm working so I can't spend the time to go gather the specifics, but in spite of your generous summary, the conferences this year were not even. Closer to .700 for the west. Last year it was .850, which is staggering.

Although if it's any consolation, the East won the all-star game.

We'll see what happens. I don't like the western conference because I live here, I like it because I like the Avery-free hockey that gets played. Even if they weren't statistically as good as the east that would still probably be true. I still watch a lot of eastern conference hockey and enjoy it, but it's not the same.

That said, Habs/Flyers could turn into the most interesting match-up in the semis. Not saying the others won't be worth watching, but there's potential there for it to get really good.

Uncle Ovipositor wrote:I'm working so I can't spend the time to go gather the specifics, but in spite of your generous summary, the conferences this year were not even. Closer to .700 for the west. Last year it was .850, which is staggering.

Well, I'm a teacher on Spring Break, and I don't know where you got your numbers. I went to NHL.com and added all the games against the other conference for the West and East and divided the total wins by 150 (15 teams, 10 inter-conference games a piece). By that calculation, the West was playing .5533 hockey against the East. Against the West, the East played .4467 hockey. Feel free to check my math, but what that comes to is this: based on this small sample size, the difference in inter-conference play is there, but minor. If we limit it to the four teams in each Conference remaining, the difference is more pronounced (.650/425), but I think what that shows is what I've been trying to say: the West is top-heavy.

Uncle Ovipositor wrote:I don't like the western conference because I live here, I like it because I like the Avery-free hockey that gets played.

But you're OK with Bertuzzi? That guy should be in jail, not playing in playoff games.

stevenstillborn wrote:But you're OK with Bertuzzi? That guy should be in jail, not playing in playoff games.

Point, set and match. But Bertuzzi is nothing compared to his teammates - he's found a good home in Anaheim.

I know I've seen the numbers broken down inter-conference and to different results, but can't be arsed to back up my argument by actually finding where. Especially since you did the math (other than dividing by 150, which i think is what you meant). I am either uninformed or willfully manipulative.