Premier Rock Forum

i don't always give money to "bums"* but i usually do if i have some to spare.

sometimes, if i have a meal with me, i'll give the guy one half of my sandwich, and i'm a skinny rail of a man (like Smeagle with sunglasses).

i think one can usually tell if the person asking for money really needs it/deserves it -- i.e. if he's had and/or has a hard life. and like George Orwell said in Down and Out In Paris and London, "bums" pay for whatever they're given many times over in suffering.

sadly though, many people truly in need feel too ashamed to ask for assistance. (i know from personal experience that pride, as well as shame, can really get in the way of asking for help -- and i've never been nearly as destitute as your average homeless person.)

*=i don't like the term "bum"

I usually give the older panhandlers something if I have anything. I hardly ever carry money though.

However, the guy last week, much younger than me, probably should have considered the possiblities of employment with a poorly-drawn but fairly large hand giving the finger tattoo placed very high up on his neck.

I've waffled so much on this issue. So many stories.

I have rationalized that "it won't really help them."

But if they were actually hungry, then it would. so that argument falls apart.

So I say, "what if they spend it on booze or drugs?"

So, I have offered to buy someone food instead. This can become as much as a half-hour affair... or more. I have ended up in the emergency ward of a hospital, with a hungry man and his pregnant wife... people with no home and no friends... instead of saying "sorry man" or even just handing the guy a few bucks. And this emergency ward was full of people just like him.

I have also found myself in convenience stores with the clerks yelling at the guy not to steal anything, while I say, "it's ok... it's ok. he's with me."

I have had people demand more and more from me, because, quite frankly, that's what they needed, at the expense of any appreciation for me helping them out. I have had a man scowl at me and call me a cheap-ass after I spent five bucks and fifteen minutes with him while he picked out a sandwich, because after we left the place he "suddenly realized" he wanted a soda too. He was right. Rude as hell, but yes, he was correct: I could have spared more. But calling me a cheap-ass sure helped me feel less guilty.

I have spent 45 minutes listening to the story of a man that got so convoluted that I couldn't even understand what he wanted, or really what he was saying. I end up giving him 10 bucks. I could have saved the 45 minutes if I had given him the 10 bucks right off. 45 minutes to me are worth way more than 10 bucks.

i'll do it again... but i dont' do it every time. usually i just toss them whatever change is in my pocket. that's kind of cheap of me. sometimes I say no, but i usually end up coming back.

FMajcinek wrote:So she begs for a dollar and her appearance doesn't quite betray the obviously unfortunate circumstances she's mired in.

BadComrade wrote:How do you know she's in an "unfortunate circumstance"? This is the kind of mentality that lets people like her operate on a daily basis.

Because she stands on a corner, begging for money. I don't think it's absurd to draw the conclusion that someone who would, daily, subject herself to the kind of vitrol and scorn that you and and your friend have shown is much worse off than you and I.

If this is the mentality that allows her to "operate" (Operation: Ask For Money) then so be it. I resign myself to being Part of The Problem.

BadComrade wrote:You think the day my co-worker saw her counting that stack of singles was a rare occurance for her? Like that woman that got the $10,000 tip on the $26 bar tab last week?

I don't know, Chris, and neither do you. Perhaps your friend saw her counting two or three days' take. Perhaps she found the money. Perhaps it was an especially good day that made up for the previous week of standing in a rainstorm on an relatively empty street. Hell, perhaps it was a very good morning for her, and she decided to knock off early and grab a gibson at Matisse. We don't have nearly enough information to answer that question.

If you saw me leave my bar at 6 this morning and walk across the way to my bank, you might have seen me count out $800 in twenties and deposit it into an ATM. You might use this information to draw the (utterly absurd) conclusion that I must've made $800 on the previous shift, and that I must earn $800 every shift, and that bartenders earn $200K per year. What you wouldn't know is that last night was one of my worst "money nights" in recent memory and that I had a couple of weeks worth of tips in my pocket because the bus was late and I didn't have time to stop at the bank before work.

What is telling, however, is your reaction to seeing a bum count a stack of singles. Instead of thinking: "I wonder if she made all that in one day?" Or, "That's seems like good money for bumming!" You thought: "Fuck her."

BadComrade wrote:No, I think he expected someone he had just givin his "hard earned money to" to remember him two minutes later. He quickly found out that she had zero appreciation for his action when she asked him for money again, because she's a fucking scam artist who's so wrapped up in her little scam that she doesn't even bother to look at the people who give her money. It's not a case of her not recognizing him... You can't miss the guy. He stands out like you would at a Farrakhan rally.

Right. Your friend's feelings were hurt because he expected something for his "hard earned dollar." He expected recognition, rememberance, thanks, appreciation--in short, he expected gratitude.

And still I contend that it's not a gift, it's not charity, if you expect something, anything in return. To offer money in exchange for something is a purchase. Your friend was under the impression that he was buying something.

FMajcinek wrote:No, it's more likely that your friend wasn't giving anything away. He was attempting to buy a feeling of superiority and stupidly expected some self-effacing display of slavering bum-gratitude. And when it didn't come, when his not-exactly-kindness wasn't even recognized, he was angry and yelled at her. What a pussy. What douchebaggery.

BadComrade wrote:You would be more than embarassed for saying that if you ever met the friend in question. It's obvious that you're full of assumptions... you assume this woman -needs- the money, you assume that my friend gave her money to "feel good about himself". You're so, so wrong on both accounts that's it's laughable.

Well, I'm assuming that she believes that she needs the money, or at least wants it badly enough to beg for it. I know for certain that I am in absolutely no position to asses the needs of a stranger, and neither are you.

You're right. "Pussy" and "douchebag" are cruel terms and probably don't accurately describe your friend. Appologies. The words I should've used were "petty" and "small." And you can be certain that if I were to witness one of my friends standing on a corner yelling at a bum for failing to meet expectations, I would be real embarrassed.

FMajcinek wrote:Fifty whole dollars! Why, with that kind of money I could buy the moon!

BadComrade wrote:You're showing your bias now. You're "Mr. Moneybags". Winner of countless EA poker nights, collector of beer soaked tips.

Jealous some? Add "posessor of magnificent genitalia" to the above and you've just written my epitaph. I'm proud of my modest accomplishments at the poker table and I'm proud of the job I do as a bartender. They are (unlike my genitals) small, fairly unimportant things, but I like doing them well.

Again, you've nailed me. I am biased. When given the choice between generosity and pettiness, guess which one I'm going to choose?

BadComrade wrote:The first time I met you, you gave me $60 to pay for your share of the bill at dinner, which was 1 plate of quesadillas, and 4 beers. I tried to give you about $40 back, and you said "It's just money, I don't care". That's great. Be a curb side philanthropist... I don't care what you do with your money.

Ooh. How personal. I didn't realize that I had offended you, Chris. If it makes you feel better, You, could send the money back to me, but you might be dissappointed: I probably wouldn't appear very grateful, and I might just spend it all on a panhandler.

But thanks for bringing it up. Actually, I had queso fundido con chorizo, not a quesedilla but, yeah, I tried to give you $60 for less than $60 worth of food and booze. I did this because I noticed that, after the dozen of us who'd been at dinner had anted up, there wasn't enough cash to cover the check. This meant that either you, Itchy (who was putting the whole thing on her credit card), or the server was going to get screwed. So I kicked in more than my share to spare us the pettiness of shaking down everybody for another 5 bucks, or, worse, seeing my friends' good time turn sour because a few people neglected to include tax and gratuity when they figured out how much they owed. I did this not out of a desire to impress you with money, but a desire to share the burden.

Also, I wanted to leave the server some extra cash. I know exactly how difficult it is to wait on a party of twelve, some drunk, some sober, most strangers to each other, all arriving at different times, ordering at different times, talking loudly over one another, etc. It's a pain in the ass--a pain I know intimately, as she and I do the same damn thing for a living--and thought the she should be rewarded for the good job she did. Waiters, bartenders--we all do this. When you make your living waiting on others, you really appreciate it when someone else is there to wait on you. Rather than rudely "educate" everybody who doesn't work in a restaurant, and who certainly shouldn't be expected to engage in the gross over-tipping that restaurant people engage in, I just did it myself.

So, yes, I probably said "It's just money, I don't care," or some other missive. I'm sure I said it partly out of a desire to avoid any awkwardness, but mostly because it's true: it is just money. This isn't to say that I'm ignorant of the value of that money, it's just that I value the quality of my company, and the quality of our interaction, more. When you compare it to the huge fun I had that evening, all the amazing people I met, the Bitter Tears, the chorizo, and Brett E. Ralph's "Funk Sucks" monologue, I think that I got off cheap.


Anyway, I'm sorry if you felt threatened or offended by what you perceive to be my cavalier attitude towards situations like that. Actually, I'm a pretty good money-manager. (When your hourly wage can vary 200% from day to day, you have to be.) Having said that, I'm not wealthy by most standards, and I've always lived well within my means. I don't have a car, I don't have cable television, and I probably shop at the same thrift stores as you.

I think that what you view as "Mr. Moneybags", is someone who works very hard, who doesn't have much time to spend with the people he loves, but who--when he does find the time--wants to enjoy every second of it and wants his friends to enjoy it too. So I'll sacrifice a few conveniences and work a few extra shifts a month to ensure that when I do get out, I'm not burdened by penny pinching or bitterness over what I can't have. So let's have the good glass of whiskey. Yes, I'll buy the next round. Yes, we can have the fucking lobster if we want. Just relax--I already did the work. It's important to me that I do that from time to time. It's something I value.

And thank you for your permission to spend my money as I choose. (When deciding how to spend some disposable income I had narrowed the choices down to: A) placing the money in a hole in the ground, and guarding that hole with a rifle and a scowl and sign that reads "MY HOLE: FUCK OFF." or B) Enjoying the company of my friends and sometimes giving the homeless a dollar. Almost chose A) untill you showed up to grudgingly allow me to have fun.)

In case you were looking for it: you may also dispense of your money how you see fit. I don't really care if you do or don't give it to the homeless. There are good arguments for both actions.

What is creepy about your views, however, is the overtly hostile and deeply personal offense you take at what is essentially an impersonal phenomenon: she is asking everybody for a buck. She's clearly not interested in you, she's interested in a buck. So why be bothered? How hard is it to either give her a buck or not? Getting offended by this is as retarded as living in Chicago and getting offended by Cold, Wet, Irish, or Flat.

And I have no idea what the hell "curb-side phillanthropist" is supposed to be, but it sounds like a much better job description than "commited bum-scowler."

BadComrade wrote:I guarantee you that there are many people on this board that don't even make $50 a day.

Well, yes, I'm sure many people here don't make much money. And I'd I'm also sure that absolutely none of them are one fifty-dollar-bill away from turning the corner, buying that loft in the West Loop, finally paying off the kid's braces. Nor would anybody's life be significantly altered by raising their wages from slightly-less-than-minimum wage to minimum wage.

BadComrade wrote: Hell, doesn't Steve only pay himself something like $24,000 a year? That works out to $66 a day, before taxes.

And still, the guy advocates throwing money at panhandlers, thus allowing them to perpetrate further money-asking scams! What a fool, to value charity as a virtue! Somebody stop him before he goes broke funding an army of superbums!

BadComrade wrote:I also guarantee you that there are many people who don't make $50 a day who have handed that woman a dollar. . .

How many of them angrily announce their regret on the internet, do you think?

BadComrade wrote:Yeah, I'm the asshole...

.

Well, Chris, there is nothing that precludes both of us from being assholes. And--as we are both sitting before fancy computers in different parts of the city, thoughtlessly banging out our feckless and high minded opinions on how miserable a beggar has to look before she's worthy of a dollar, and neither of us has mentioned what an amazing, otherworldly luxury it is to be able to this--well, then that's probably the case. We are both assholes.

However, if it has to be just one of us, I vote you.

*Applause*

LeMoustache wrote:I never give anything but a cigarette to people who aren't disabled for the following reasons: a.) it's not that difficult to find a job, and even if you don't like flipping burgers or mopping floors, it's at least a decent living,

If you think it's easy to get a job when you're homeless and haven't washed in a month, much less even get into anywhere that could possibly give you an interview, congratulations! You live in Neverland, and there are head lice in your burgers.

I mean, seriously, the fuck.

BadComrade wrote:Like I said, it comes down to this: I don't like people that beg for money when they don't deserve it. If you come at me with a "who are you to decide who is and who isn't deserving of money", I'll tell you that I am, because it's my fucking money that I worked for. There's a "tip jar" at the Mexican restaurant I go to when I'm at work. I pay for my food, they wrap it in foil and hand it to me. This is not deserving of a tip... this is something they're paid hourly for. If I was eating there, and the waitress was going out of her way to refill my drink, get me napkins, etc, then I'd give her 20-25% of whatever the bill was. Fuck people begging for money they don't deserve. I would never put a tip jar on the counter of the record store I work in, with my reasoning being that it's "hard work" to go grab the CDs that people want to buy from behind the counter.

My god, you make me sad. Are you truly that solipsistic? Do you actually look at yourself and think, yes, this in any way resembles what you consider a good person?

And jesus, there are thousands of you.

it's in our nature to be mean.

FMajcinek wrote:But thanks for bringing it up. Actually, I had queso fundido con chorizo, not a quesedilla but, yeah, I tried to give you $60 for less than $60 worth of food and booze. I did this because I noticed that, after the dozen of us who'd been at dinner had anted up, there wasn't enough cash to cover the check. This meant that either you, Itchy (who was putting the whole thing on her credit card), or the server was going to get screwed. So I kicked in more than my share to spare us the pettiness of shaking down everybody for another 5 bucks, or, worse, seeing my friends' good time turn sour because a few people neglected to include tax and gratuity when they figured out how much they owed. I did this not out of a desire to impress you with money, but a desire to share the burden.

Hey man, anytime you need company for dinner in Chapel Hill, you ring me up, you hear?

I'm usually the guy who rounds out the short bill and I can tell you that you'd get a hearty pat on the back from me for even offering to pitch in above your damage.

This is a great quality. Salut, etc.

-A

I am giving more these days. If they have a dog, its pretty sure fire I'm going to give them a buck or two. I have no way of jusifying this, other than the fact that the poor animal is at the mercy of this guy. I read a study which suggested that a disturbingly large portion of homeless people are schizophrenic, which makes me sympathetic, even to the ones that are mean. I'll even give just because I know how much SUV driving Bush supporters around here HATE the homeless. Kids around here beat em up.

They can go fuck themselves. The best is when you can smell the beer on their breath. I wish I could afford beer.