Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Ah I just noticed that in my efforts to be your rhetoric coach I have become part of your signature. Something of me has been taken to heart.

In the mean time if you want to talk media selling air time I'll buy that, or at least consider it more seriously than your whining about Obama not signing off on a really out there, conspiracy theory.

Meanwhile you still haven't connected the dots in the argument I originally challenged, but you have changed the name of the thread again.

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Ah, like the 500 plus words you helped us out with, that had no sources sited full of cutting edge AIDS research you did with your bio degree (i.e. google search).

I think the point was that Obama can't really be expected to campaign with a reverend who is launching conspiracy theory tirades, as his mascot. Your venom against him for disowning such misplaced (haven't found Wright's bio degree either) soapboxing is perplexing to say the least. Again: if all candidates are bought and sold why do you weigh in so heavily on Obama?

Do you disagree that a loud public endorsement of Wright's ideas at this point could cost Obama a lot?

Do you just resent that some people find Obama halfway decent?

I'm still not convinced I'm any more 'jibbering' than you, maybe you should re-introduce that 'de-black' concept you brought up. That seemed to win a lot of favor.
Colonel Panic wrote:Anybody who gazes directly into a laser is an idiot.

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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When I questioned what president tries to expose cover CIA crack operations (because you indicated Obama is tremendously lacking in this area) you said I was stupid for even suggesting it. But somehow this is your ax for Obama.

And, no I don't care about your AIDS theory because it looks pretty weak. I don't think Obama's job is to pedal your AIDS theory that has been popularized by someone who goes by Dr. because of his time in law school, not at the microscope.

Your use of 'de-black' as an invented word is still disturbing and it is inherently racist.

Again, no one electable discusses CIA crack because that would make them not electable. Not only is it difficult to prove, it's not what I call one of the pressing issues of our day. Most people on here who have defended Obama have looked to him for a repose from violations of civil liberties, from ridiculous spending, from a refusal to acknowledge the absurd state of health care in this country, really from all things Bush.

Have you picked a better candidate?
Colonel Panic wrote:Anybody who gazes directly into a laser is an idiot.

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Really?

Well, he's not removing soldiers from the Middle East, he reauthorized the Patriot Act, and he's leaving health care in the private sector.

That was easy.

Foreign Policy and the President's Irrelevance
February 5, 2008 | 2051 GMT

By George Friedman

The discussion of Iraq has been shaped and reshaped by events. The apparent improvement in the U.S. position in Iraq has quieted that debate as well. At one extreme, Obama has said he favors a rapid U.S. withdrawal, although he has been vague as to the timing. At the other extreme, McCain has endorsed the Bush administration’s handling of the war. This means that even though he has been quite pro-surge, he does not oppose withdrawal in principle but does insist on not setting a timeline for one. The others’ views are less clear.

The consensus on foreign policy is the most interesting feature of the election, especially regarding Iraq. We don’t mean the posturing or the shouting or the attempt to position one candidate against the others. We mean two things: first, what the candidates are saying after the passion is boiled away, and second, what they are likely to do if they become president.

There is, of course, a great deal of discussion about who supported or opposed what and when. That is not a trivial discussion, but it doesn’t really point to what anyone will do. On a second level, there is the discussion about whether the United States should withdraw from Iraq. Even here, there is actually little that divides the candidates. The real question is when that withdrawal should take place, over what period of time and whether the timeline should be announced.

There is no candidate arguing for the permanent stationing of more than 100,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. There are those who believe that political ends can and should be achieved in Iraq, and that the drawdown of forces should be keyed to achieving those ends. That is essentially the Bush policy. Then there are those who believe that the United States not only has failed to achieve its political goals but also, in fact, is not going to achieve them. Under this reasoning, the United States ought to be prepared to withdraw from Iraq on a timetable that is indifferent to the situation on the ground.

This has been Obama’s position to this point, and it distinguishes him from other candidates — including Clinton, who has been much less clear on what her policy going forward would be. But even Obama’s emphasis, if not his outright position, has shifted as a political resolution in Iraq has appeared more achievable. He remains committed to a withdrawal from Iraq, but he is not clear on the timeline. He calls for having all U.S. combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months, but qualifies his statement by saying that if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes against the group. Since al Qaeda is in fact building a base within Iraq, Obama’s commitment to having troops in Iraq is open-ended.

The shift in Obama’s emphasis — and this is the important point — means his position on Iraq is not really different from that of McCain, the most pro-Bush candidate. Events have bypassed the stance that the situation on the ground is hopeless, so even Obama’s position has tacked toward a phased withdrawal based on political evolutions.

It has long been said that presidential candidates make promises but do what they want if elected. In foreign policy, presidential candidates make promises and, if elected, do what they must to get re-elected. Assume that the situation in Iraq does not deteriorate dramatically, which is always a possibility, and assume a president is elected who would simply withdraw troops from Iraq. The withdrawal from Iraq obviously would increase Iranian power and presence in Iraq. That, in turn, would precipitate a crisis between Iran and Saudi Arabia, two powers with substantial differences dividing them. The United States would then face the question of whether to support the Saudis against Iran. Placing forces in Saudi Arabia is the last thing the Americans or the Saudis want. But there is one thing that the Americans want less: Iranian dominance of the Arabian Peninsula.

Any president who simply withdrew forces from Iraq without a political settlement would find himself or herself in an enormously difficult position. Indeed, such a president would find himself or herself in a politically untenable position. The consequences of a withdrawal are as substantial as the consequences of remaining. The decline in violence and the emergence of some semblance of a political process tilts the politics of decision-making toward a phased withdrawal based on improvements on the ground and away from a phased withdrawal based on the premise that the situation on the ground will not improve. Therefore, even assuming Obama wins the nomination and the presidency, the likelihood of a rapid, unilateral withdrawal is minimal. The political cost of the consequences would be too high, and he wouldn’t be able to afford it.

Though Obama is the one outrider from the general consensus on Iraq, we would argue that the relative rhetorical consensus among the candidates extends to a practical consensus. It is not that presidents simply lie. It is that presidents frequently find themselves in situations where the things they want to do and the things they can do — and must do — diverge. We have written previously about situations in which policymakers are not really free to make policy. The consequences of policy choices constrain the policymaker. A president could choose a range of policies. But most have unacceptable outcomes, so geopolitical realities herd presidents in certain directions.



When you drill down into position papers that are written but not meant to be read — and which certainly are not devised by the candidates — you find some interesting thoughts. But for the most part, the positions are clear. The candidates are concerned about Russia’s growing internal authoritarianism and hope it ends. The candidates are concerned about the impact of China on American jobs but generally are committed to variations on free trade. They are also concerned about growing authoritarianism in China and hope it ends. On the unification of Europe, they have no objections.

This might appear vapid, but we would argue that it really isn’t. In spite of the constitutional power of the U.S. president in foreign policy, in most cases, the president really doesn’t have a choice. Policies have institutionalized themselves over the decades, and shifting those policies has costs that presidents can’t absorb. There is a reason the United States behaves as it does toward Russia, China and Europe, and these reasons usually are powerful. Presidents do not simply make policy. Rather, they align themselves with existing reality. For example, since the American public doesn’t care about European unification, there is no point in debating the subject. There are no decisions to be made on such issues. There is only the illusion of decisions.

There is a deeper reason as well. The United States does not simply decide on policies. It responds to a world that is setting America’s agenda. During the 2000 campaign, the most important issue that would dominate the American presidency regardless of who was elected never was discussed: 9/11. Whatever the presidential candidates thought would or wouldn’t be important, someone else was going to set the agenda.



Presidents are not to be judged by how they make history. They are to be judged by how gracefully they submit to the rules that history lays down. The consensus or disinterest of candidates is not important. What is important is this: The dominant foreign policy issue facing the candidates is going to hit them out of the blue one day. Their options will be few, and how quickly they recognize what must be done as opposed to what they would like to do is about all they will be judged by.

We know that Johnson made a terrible hash of Vietnam, while Roosevelt did pretty well in World War II. We strongly suspect that if Johnson had been president during World War II he would be respected and admired today, while if Roosevelt had been president during Vietnam he would be reviled. It’s not that presidents don’t matter. It’s that they don’t matter nearly as much as we would like to think and they would have us believe. Mostly, they are trapped in realities not of their own making.
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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AIDS always struck me as a really crappy, inefficient way to 'thin out' overpopulated areas. If you're going to go all evil emperor on the world surely you'd come up with something better.

Back to the subject in hand I can see and understand why Obama is trying to distance himself as much as possible from Wright. Its pretty obvious that the flag-wavers would be pretty turned off by some of his comments and this would hurt Obama big time on the real election.

The only positive thing for Obama about the Wright story is it might convince the 10% of Americans who think Obama is a Muslim or a 'closet Muslim' that he is a Christian. (Stat Source Channel Four News)

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Rick Reuben wrote:
losthighway wrote:
Stop fucking up the thread. Make a point on Obama/Wright, bozo.


Why? If you feel that you can systematically insult and berate fellow board members behind the cowardly walls of the internet, then we can de-rail your precious
'important' threads. It's all fair game, ya know?

It's easy. When you insult, and take it to that level, you are throwing any type of rule or law out the window. I would never say, after getting sucker-punched by someone: "Can we talk about why you felt the need to sucker-punch me?"- Rather, I would find the most effective means to return the pain.
It's apparent that you place considerably more value on the issues and railroading those issues into our consciousness than on remaining a presence here with any kind of integrity or respectability.

This threads' already fucked, like all your threads.

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Heeby Jeeby wrote:AIDS always struck me as a really crappy, inefficient way to 'thin out' overpopulated areas. If you're going to go all evil emperor on the world surely you'd come up with something better.


I'm not sure I buy into the gov't AIDS story, but if they were going to do it, AIDS is actually a fine disease for the purpose. The problem with most fatal diseases is that they kill their hosts before they can move on to the next person. AIDS obviously doesn't have this problem, and also comes with the plus (for genocidal maniacs) of laying dormant for years.

Will Obama Condemn Starvation Caused By Lords Of Capital?

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Rick Reuben wrote: I tried to find you some people willing to help you move that immovable object, but all the sellout liberals lied to me and told me that the permanent corporate government didn't exist. So my attempts to round up an irresistible force to confront the immovable object failed.


And so cries the electrical audio forum board martyr. A tragedy of our day. "Next time Gadget, next time."

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