Kniferide wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:03 pm The only advantage of 500 I can see is size. The units per ch aren't really less expensive than rack units and for the cost of a chassis I can buy like another whole thing to actually use. I do see it useful if you are in a tight space though.

It depends. With Api a 3124 gets you 4 channels in one go with the price per channel slightly lower but only after a whopping $3k investment. The prospect of gradually building a collection is a little more approachable.

The Great Rivers are slightly cheaper per channel in 500 format.

Well, there are a couple of "Off Of The Beaten Path..." signal processing options that folks have built for the 500 Series format.

That said, none of them are what I'd call "Budget...", and you've got to sink the money into a rack/lunchbox to get in the door.

Winds up being an investment if it's essentially going to be an "Audio..." version of the Statue Of Liberty play versus things that you will use on a regular basis.

numberthirty wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:10 pm Well, there are a couple of "Off Of The Beaten Path..." signal processing options that folks have built for the 500 Series format.

That said, none of them are what I'd call "Budget...", and you've got to sink the money into a rack/lunchbox to get in the door.

Winds up being an investment if it's essentially going to be an "Audio..." version of the Statue Of Liberty play versus things that you will use on a regular basis.

Yeah, I was trying to avoid saying 500 series is dumb... but I feel like it's fucking really dumb.

if you want to go the DIY route based on kits it's the best way to go.

Probably the greatest advantage of 500 series stuff in my opinion is the number of units that can be run from a single power supply, especially if each unit respects the VPR Alliance spec for current draw. On top of that, as mentioned, it’s very DIY friendly. In fact, depending on one’s level of skill, it’s pretty simple to source a Bel dual rail power supply and some EDAC card edge connectors, and roll your own for pretty cheap.

Mixers are great and are almost always your best bang for the buck when it comes to cost per channel, but you also have to be prepared to maintain the thing, especially if you buy used. Depending on how the board is constructed, this could mean a partial or total decommission to access a faulty channel or master section PCB. It may also require a re-cap just to be brought into proper working order which can get expensive and/or time-consuming. Not bringing this up to dissuade but to inform.

Nate Dort wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:13 pm I read somewhere that St. Vincent commissioned somebody to build that circuit into a pedal. Wouldn't be too difficult.

If you're DIY-handy: https://www.pedalpcb.com/product/pcb511/

penningtron wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:36 pm

Kniferide wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:41 pm Was having this conversation at work the other day and I was the odd man out. My arguement was something like any subtitles from using a different mic pre on something really transient won't really be heard in a mix but room and OH mics are kinda an always on situation and more likely to matter. For kick and snare it's mic choice and placement that matter to me. I usually just use board pres for them.

Right. Sure, maybe a Neve or whatever can add a little more low end to a kick mic, but so can, y'know, EQ. (and different mic choices and placement, etc..)

In my mind, the counter argument to this is that in the year of our lord 2022, most preamps from behringer to [something very expensive] do an excellent job of being a wire-with-gain as long as they're not being asked to do too much. The pres in a mid-level small format board like an A&H or a Mackie or whatever are going to probably sound 100% a++ on drums, electric guitars, etc. If it's a loud source and you're actively trying to keep the thing out of the red, I'd say that at this point, preamps are really not much to worry about. Use what you have, it's probably fine!

But, the flip of that is that where different pres tend to show their inherent differences is when they're being pushed into distortion/saturation/clipping; so, to me, it makes sense to use the pres that have more "character" or that distort in a way you like on sources where you may notice it. If you're crushing room mics, it's usually with a compressor, but a snare or kick overdriving a nice preamp can add something unique to a drum sound, yknow, provided prevailing winds etc etc.

But yes, if your goal is to get the most naturalistic/documentary style capture of whatever is going into a microphone wherever it's placed, then a drum kit played in a moderate-to-loud rock context is probably the thing least-worth spending time fussing over, pre wise. at least

mdc wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:17 am

Nate Dort wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:13 pm I read somewhere that St. Vincent commissioned somebody to build that circuit into a pedal. Wouldn't be too difficult.

If you're DIY-handy: https://www.pedalpcb.com/product/pcb511/

I am.

But if you're not: https://www.acornamps.com/gear/solid-st ... eamp-pedal

I think part of the sound of the Decade is the little TDA2030 power amp IC clipping. I'd want to build the whole amp in a box with a dummy speaker load and tap off that as a line out, like what these acorn guys did.

mdc wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:24 am But, the flip of that is that where different pres tend to show their inherent differences is when they're being pushed into distortion/saturation/clipping; so, to me, it makes sense to use the pres that have more "character" or that distort in a way you like on sources where you may notice it. If you're crushing room mics, it's usually with a compressor, but a snare or kick overdriving a nice preamp can add something unique to a drum sound, yknow, provided prevailing winds etc etc.

Oh yeah, I like those sounds too, but to me they've gotten easier to emulate in the box (or hardware boxes/reamp stuff too I'm sure but I don't have much experience there). I used to have a Neve clone I'd hit hard for guitar leads, but have found other ways to mimic that. I definitely recognize a 'splatty' snare sound on some older albums, which may have come from multiple tape generations vs preamps but it can be a desirable sound worth aiming for.

However when I used to listen to fancy pre shootouts (which were mostly done at normal levels), I would sometimes think I'd pickup a little extra 'something' in the cymbals, or the breathiness of a vocal, or nuances like that. Might be too subtle to notice in a rock mix, but there were differences under a microscope. If I had the extra 2 or 4 channels of John Hardy or whatever versus my Audient pres (totally fine preamps) that's where I'd put them. But it's probably not a deal breaker either way.

mdc wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:24 am But, the flip of that is that where different pres tend to show their inherent differences is when they're being pushed into distortion/saturation/clipping; so, to me, it makes sense to use the pres that have more "character" or that distort in a way you like on sources where you may notice it. If you're crushing room mics, it's usually with a compressor, but a snare or kick overdriving a nice preamp can add something unique to a drum sound, yknow, provided prevailing winds etc etc.

I think we discussed this a bit earlier in this thread (or was it another preamp thread?), but for me, I'm recording myself at home with no control room and getting a good take is 99% of my concern. Have a good performance and don't blow out the levels in a bad way. Tracking is the worst part in the recording workflow for me to be like "hmm, kick is sounding good, but maybe we can give this stepped attenuator a few clicks for some harmonic distortion bla bla bla"

Complete respect to recordists who can make some magic like that happen on the way in, but I am definitely in the "wire with gain" camp, practically speaking.