ChudFusk wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:30 am

boilermaker wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:31 amNo one is born a Muslim.

Bruh. Where do you think Muslims, Jews, Hindus or Christians come from? Do you think kids pick their religion in grade school at a Scholastic book fair? We are all literally born into our religion based on our geographic location and the religion of our parents, which they had no choice over either.

Bruh. No we aren't. My country is 90+% catholic, and I wasn't born into it. The term you are looking for is, children are forced into a certain religion by their parents, peers and so on. Big difference between that and something you are born with, something you can't change.

I just read a little bit into this guy and y'all are fucked up.

Interesting discussion on being born into a religion. My great-grandmother belonged to the Church of God in Christ, whereas my grandmother was a strict Baptist, married a preacher man, and they owned a church and religious bookstore. My mom and pop, who weren't super religious, made me go to Sunday school and church every week mostly because it was just easier as well as expected. Even as a child I never thought of myself as a Baptist as I hated Sunday School and church. My thoughts changed as I was forced into baptism. Once I was baptized I then thought: well, fuck, I guess I'm really baptist now. From my perspective it was an important and terrifying ritual into becoming a Baptist and getting saved (the preacher takes his hand and covers your face as he dunks you like a sinful witch into a large baptism tub or pool). You don't even know who you are at such a young age, and suddenly you are taking part in a major holy sacrament where you are in a baptismal gown and the choir is singing hymns at you and hollerin' and such standing waist high in water that is symbolically cleansing you of your sins making you nice and supple for Jesus.

Flash-forward a handful of years and I'm serving as an altar boy at a Catholic church that was part of my grade school. I was exhausted with my grandmother's church/religion and thought serving a 30 minute mass on Sundays with my homies from school was a fun thing to do. I was never baptized Catholic, nor did I ever take catechism classes or receive communion. I never once thought of myself as Catholic, and by the time I graduated grade school I had given up on religion altogether.

I never thought I was born Baptist but I did believe I was forced into it when I was baptized. I certainly never thought I was Catholic. I was religiously fluid, moreso curious about religious rituals. Thank goodness my parental units were cool about letting me find my own path once I became a preteen.

boilermaker wrote: I find it strange that a big chunk of today's liberals, people who should think rationally, are the ones that are screaming Islamophobia, instead of calling out Islam on their stance on women, gays and so on. Instead of pushing for science, education, reasoning, not defending evil fairy tale believes. And these same people have no problem shiting on Christianity, Scientology or any other cult. Because in their minds Muslim=non white person.

I don't think this is entirely true. During the early part of Trump's administration, as a gay man I stood alongside with several LGBTQ+ Muslims, allies, and even solo during demonstrations and protests. I, and many other Americans fight for the freedom to love, practice, wed, etc., whoever and whatever faith, even if tenets of that faith might go against one's own belief system. I would also argue that Christianity and Evangelicalism are so pervasive in American life that it feels as if its getting shit on more than Islam but in reality we are just fighting. I do understand your perspective, though. The way I see it: "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

As for Sam Harris I didn't know who he was prior to this thread. At first I got him confused with the singer-songwriter from London Sam Smith, and then confused him with a different Sam Harris who in 1984 snatched the country's collective wig by oversinging "Over the Rainbow" on Star Search.

https://youtu.be/AZyjSuOrRBw?si=GyrDU-wjM6ftyoG6

rsmurphy wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:02 pm Interesting discussion on being born into a religion.

Yeah..

I spilled my guts on this in another thread. Sure, it’s something you can change. But as a child, I was involuntarily subjected to it for almost 18 years. I can still to this day cite all of the chants. Things that were pummeled into me have taken years to unlearn.

jfv wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:23 pm

rsmurphy wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:02 pm Interesting discussion on being born into a religion.

Yeah..

I spilled my guts on this in another thread. Sure, it’s something you can change. But as a child, I was involuntarily subjected to it for almost 18 years. I can still to this day cite all of the chants. Things that were pummeled into me have taken years to unlearn.

I think the wider societal issue is how religious groups react to criticism or mockery by internal or outside groups. Christianity in the US is both powerful and claims persecution at the same time. The Abrahamic religions seem to revel in a sense of persecution. In the UK Muslims are actually a pretty tiny minority (6.5%) but have an oversized impact on public discourse. According to polling they hold some pretty terrible views on homosexuality and apostasy - polling around a third think apostasy should be punished with death. Again, the victims of these attitudes are Muslims not other people. It should be recognised that the most affected by bad ideas are often minorities within minority groups.

For old times’ sake, kerble.

There are several names in the old thread that I miss.

Sam Harris is crap.

boilermaker wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:31 am

A_Man_Who_Tries wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:04 pm

boilermaker wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:16 pm

Why?

I linked to a reasonable summary of all that.

I don't know about that other stuff he is accused of, but the whole Islamophobia is such a weird term to me. When I think of the word phobia I think of discrimination based on something you are born as, something you can't change. Like sex, race, nationality, sexuality etc.No one is born a Muslim. Just like all the religions, it's an evil cult from the dark ages that is pushed on to the little children. And it should be called out. It's not called out enough. I find it strange that a big chunk of today's liberals, people who should think rationally, are the ones that are screaming Islamophobia, instead of calling out Islam on their stance on women, gays and so on. Instead of pushing for science, education, reasoning, not defending evil fairy tale believes. And these same people have no problem shiting on Christianity, Scientology or any other cult. Because in their minds Muslim=non white person. So if you are critical of Islam, you are automatically a racist. When it's a belief that has nothing to do with a race.
As I said, I don't know about the other stuff from that link, but I do know that he is boring as hell. I tried to watch a video with him on the subject of AI, and the guy is painfully dull. He can make a subject, which was very interesting when other guests were discussing it, seem like the most boring thing on the planet. Same with atheism, religious discussion, evolution...things that people like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens make interesting to listen to, he turns into a chore

Well said. The BBC and the Guardian are among the liberals who refuse to criticise it. It's both laughable and worrying

That’s the thing… are they not critical because of misplaced tolerance or out of fear of violence.

I think it’s the latter.

I am less familiar with Harris than I am with the other four horsemen of New Atheism, but my memory of the charge of Islamophobia against him/them is based on what topics they chose to emphasize, rather than their ideological stance on the religion or whether Muslims chose it or whatever.

It’s fair to say the Horsemen ideologically consider all religion to be evil, but in the early 2000s they spent a lot of ink and breath talking about how Islam was inherently evil* and that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were ergo moral acts, despite being spearheaded by George W. Bush, the most overtly religious American president since Carter. They didn’t seem to give other religions the same treatment. All this suggested that the thing they really held dear was not the freedom of the human mind from the corroding effects of religion, but the joy they got from pissing directly onto religions.

* - I blame Hitchens for planting this talking point onto Bill Maher’s tongue in 2005/6, where it has not left to this day.

^ Yes. Fuck the whole lot of them. And Thomas Friedman too. It's depressing that any of them still have jobs and platforms.
And honestly it's more depressing that this place is seemingy more or at least equally amenable to these charlatans as it was back in the "golden days" on here, like people have backslid and view this stuff ahistorically, while ranting in the Politics thread how ignorant of context normie Americans are etc. Give me a fucking break.