penningtron wrote: Mon Jul 28, 2025 11:55 am

I mostly hate fusion outside of the Herbie stuff. Fusion guitar, that slightly distorted but totally clean-sounding tone, man. Just one of the worst sounds.

That somewhat describes McLaughlin's playing on Bitches Brew but not at all Pete Cosey or Sonny Sharrock.

Honestly, I don't think that describes McLaughlin with Miles or Mahavishnu either; I think he had a pretty wicked tone in that era. No, I associate that sound primarily with Pat Metheny and all his followers though I guess Al Di Meola could be consider another earlier, "negative" influence on fusion-guitar with the kind of legato style phrasing coupled with a post-Santana tone... or something. McLaughlin sounds good to me until 75 or so where he too got too polished in his style... I think he wanted to show DiMeola that he too could do sweep picking; he sounded cooler when his phrasing was more like Coltrane via Hendrix or something...

I can't vote for an era-- too much I haven't heard.

Three excellent things from different eras that I picked up used on Saturday, followed by an unexpected 6 hour drive on Sunday where I got to listen through all of them.

penningtron wrote: Mon Jul 28, 2025 11:55 am

I mostly hate fusion outside of the Herbie stuff. Fusion guitar, that slightly distorted but totally clean-sounding tone, man. Just one of the worst sounds.

That somewhat describes McLaughlin's playing on Bitches Brew but not at all Pete Cosey or Sonny Sharrock.

I've heard so many times what a genius McLaughlin is and I cannot listen to him on electric guitar. Sharrock's Black Woman is one of my favorite albums, but I don't really enjoy much else of his. I know FM Isaac punches a wall every time I say this, but I'd gladly listen to a version of Ask The Ages with Sharrock edited out.

Tree wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 8:44 am I've heard so many times what a genius McLaughlin is and I cannot listen to him on electric guitar.

I'm not really a fan outside of his Tony Williams Lifetime stuff (which I love, but are barely 'jazz' albums).

Part of the charm of this era was having rock musicians show up to button & tie jazz studios in Manhattan with their touring rigs, and trying to make it work. Wailing away on a silver face Twin with the volume on 2 is a choice!

Tom Verlaine calls attention to the albums where McLaughlin used a Fender, like In A Silent Way and some other stuff. Reading that however long ago made earlier McLaughlin click for me, once I started to hear his different phases, but I still can’t stand a lot of it. Love electric Miles and the artier stuff as the 70s went along, just have zero patience for fusion.

I do appreciate that 70s Verlaine had the (lowercase) guitar world divided between Gibsons and Fenders, and now it totally makes sense to me too.

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:18 am Tom Verlaine calls attention to the albums where McLaughlin used a Fender, like In A Silent Way and some other stuff.

I hadn't really thought about it but props to him for appearing to play a 'student model' Mustang on this:

llllllllllllllllllll wrote: Fri Jul 25, 2025 4:23 pm

jimmy spako wrote: Fri Jul 25, 2025 6:06 am Miles helped define "cool jazz", see "Birth of the Cool" etc.

I get that part but I don’t think that’s what 99% of people mean when they refer to “cool jazz” in 2025

That term was also used to describe the Angelo Badalamenti Twin Peaks stuff, which... also naw. Love Angelo, love that music, but it ain't "cool jazz".

Tree wrote: Mon Jul 28, 2025 8:20 am What is Giant Steps considered? Is that hard bop? That's pretty great stuff.

Sure, hard bop with maybe half a foot still hanging in modal jazz. That's the best era for me, the height of modal jazz through the beginning of hard bop. I like stuff from basically every era but that's the one I listen to the most. Miles, Coltrane, Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, Cannonball, Art Blakey, pre-orchestra Wes Montgomery, etc

Post-1975 fusion is a heavy case of diminishing returns, but I don't get not enjoying this track, guitar playing and tone very much included:



The era for good fusion is roughly 1969 through to 1973, past that it's slim pickings.

When I was a teenager, a family friend gave me a Best of Mahavishnu Orchestra tape. I'm so glad he did.

This album is in really poor taste, but I love it anyway. Like if the members of Funkadelic took the Limitless drug in a flowery green field: